Soviet Openings are too Weak

[Cranialwizard]

and btw, with that sniper opening into sturmovie, you have to pay excess 35 fuel to back tech to the Red Army Mustering Tent to get the Tank Hall transiation so.... kind of much to ask. The Tank hall is also ridiculously high for its fuel costs and the light tankkovy upgrade should cost considerably less fuel as should the heavy tankkovy (by a slighter margin) because of that Support Barracks penalty (which really kills diversity of a Red Army Musterting Tent--->tank hall strategy).

That's what doctrinal reliance plays into. If you're looking for cheap quick tanks from a sniper start go for the 4 CP tank riders. Later when you have the fuel you can create your back tech. Hell if you go prop for Navals and are in a 2v2 you don't NEED to backtech-use the fuel on upgrades in the armory and help your other mate out if he goes for tanks.

[GodlikeDennis]

Watch the latest Sublime shoutcast. I go T1-T3 Prop.

Trust me, the fuel costs have been compared very carefully to those of the existing factions. There are no problems jumping straight to T3 if you gain the early advantage or put down an outpost. If you outpost up, you can even rush T4 if you've got a solid advantage and good callins.

[bopokippo]

plz read and help me

[Chancellor]

plz read and help me

I've read your edited post.  This is going to sound blunt, and I don't mean any offense against you by saying this, but this is really a learn to play issue, not a balance issue, mate.

[Cranialwizard]

I have to agree with Yau. It sounds like you're lacking the usage of combined arms and you're splitting your army up.

[Pac-Fish]

Wow, thats alot of editting . If you cant get the sniper strat down then stick to Inginery Conscript and CS. A good tip is to use "Attack Move" The second a unit sees a enemy unit in range it will attack it. This is good for sniper strategies, as it involves less micro IMO. And since Sniper srats typically involve getting 25 fuel for sturmitove(I have no freaking idea how to spell this ) you should get it relatively fast. Quite honestly 25 is a really small amount if you can retain map control. Then when you get Sturmitove it should be easier. But Im no expert so you know, dont take my advice seriously . Better to listen to the balancers

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Sturmovie Ingenery upgrade costs 200mp/25fuel, not 35. You dont need the Mustering Tent, too. Each Ingenery needs 100mp/75 ammo to upgrade to a sturmovie.

[Pac-Fish]

Sturmovie Ingenery upgrade costs 200mp/25fuel, not 35. You dont need the Mustering Tent, too. Each Ingenery needs 100mp/75 ammo to upgrade to a sturmovie.

Oppsie  . I editted my post to fit the correct info . Wow then Sturmovie is alot easier to get than I though

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Yep. If you're good at microing snipers you can try 2 engineries, build ssb - sniper upgrade, 2 snipers. Then Armoury - Sturmovie upgrade and upgrade 2-3 Sturmovies, works best if you or your mate can OP a medium/high ammo point.
This strategy is mainly for 2on2 ++

[Otto Halfhand]

v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

[Pac-Fish]

I don't plat too often vs SU anymore but I don't think I've ever seen a Sniper start followed by Stumovie. Im no expert but it's probably cause its too weak. With that said CS-3 Conscript-Molotov-T2 is probably the main and only strategy. Kind of predictable 

[Killar]

v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

sry but sounds like bogus to me. Why do teching fuel costs make soviet strats predictable?

[Cranialwizard]

v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

sry but sounds like bogus to me. Why do teching fuel costs make soviet strats predictable?

Agreed. Your math is a bit off too.

Teching cost have little to do in the extent of strategy. If it's near impossible to scrape together the necessary fuel then yes, but T70/T90s pop at roughly the same time an M8 will. So what's the big deal?

The argument you are trying to make is almost like saying "Brits are predictable because of the tech cost".

Who said you have to rely on doctrines? I think you're mixing your definitions here.

RELYING on a doctrine means that a doctrine is 100% NECESSARY to win a game. You can not win without it.
SELECTING a doctrine is using one of the three choices you have to adapt to your strategy. You can use doctrines to create synergy between your units and use the abilities to support the gameplay style YOU choose.
Is like saying if you go Wehrmacht T1-T3, you HAVE to go Blitzkrieg. No, that's not the case. Though it works the best, you're not "forced" to pick any doctrine.

Use the doctrines to SUPPORT the type of gameplay you use. Just like in the T1-T3 jump mentioned above, you can use Stormtroopers to help with AT matters with Shrecks and help provide a bit of an anti-infantry stop-gap for your Volk because they will not be able to stand up to BARs without vet, but that goes against your strategy of devoting fuel to fast vehicles. It's not NECCESARY, because you can use Faust and Stugs and Mines to help deal with vehicles, or you can use Snipers, MGs, and well-microed Volk and Flamers to help defend against infantry.

Similarly, if you go for such an armor rush, you can use a doctrine like Propaganda to your advantage by making Navals, which can preform closely to the role of Storms and help with both AT and AI. They're not necessary but they are helpful, as you can simply use Conscripts, CS, Molotovs, and Sturmovie if you play your cards right to stop gap the Armored rush. Americans do it just fine with Rifles, and Conscripts have a lower DPS drop than rifles do.

[Killar]

Soviets have the biggest variety of teching avaiable. Look at the armoury, there are so much possibilites. Wehr never knows what will come next.

Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

Wehr goes T1 -> t2 or T1 -> T3
PE goes fast AC or P4 depending on map control


I think the problem here is not balance related but skill related. You are unsure how to play soviets yet (trying not to sound arrogant)

[Pac-Fish]

Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

WHats HM stand for

And doesn't conscript spam usually lead to fast vehicles anyways? I mean its not like you're going to buy 4-5 conscripts just to tech normally.