Mosin-Nagant aestetics (and the M1939 Carbine)

[TheVolskinator]

So, after looking over the Mosin-Nagant model, it occured to me that it just feels...short. It struck me as closer to the M1939 Carbine variant, but not as definitively the M1891/30 or the M1939C. Knowing that there are going to be overhauls done with models etc when (if) the OH is eventually released, I thought I'd bring this up. My point being, maybe finding someone who is willing to elongate the current Mosin a tad.

The other thought that struck me was giving Ingenery the M1939C by default, rather then their (after checking corsix) pitiful current weapons. Yes yes, "4 man squads with decent rifles?!". 32.5 HP/Man. I was brainstorming an M1 Carbine-like concept, with poor long range accuracy but less of a loss of accuracy on the move. I realise that any and all changes are being moved to the back burner until the OH is out.

As an add-on observation to the mods, the Strekly Mosin looks good in corsix. It struck me as a Stormtrooper K98k with 12 damage as opposed to 15. I know you guys tweaked everything to be painstakingly balanced, but .45 long range and ?.65 medium range accuracy is on par with Grenadiers for a comparitively lower cost and more health in a squad on squad fight. Was there a reason that vanilla Strekly rifles are so good?

[Otto Halfhand]

...The other thought that struck me was giving Ingenery the M1939C by default, rather then their (after checking corsix) pitiful current weapons. Yes yes, "4 man squads with decent rifles?!". 32.5 HP/Man.... the Strekly Mosin looks good in corsix. It struck me as a Stormtrooper K98k with 12 damage as opposed to 15. I know you guys tweaked everything to be painstakingly balanced, but .45 long range and ?.65 medium range accuracy is on par with Grenadiers for a comparitively lower cost and more health in a squad on squad fight. Was there a reason that vanilla Strekly rifles are so good?

Your argument is very cogent. The wide variety of Soviet Rifles in the EF mod is bewildering. Granting the one-shot kill to snipers as an exception it seems to me the Mosin "M1939C" should be the default infantry rifle for all Soviet infantry Squads. Other differences in performance should be handled by the Squad statistics. When balancing for game play one less variable need be considered and buffs and nerfs to the different mosin types in game just makes future balancing efforts more difficult. What started as three types of Mosins plus two generic rifles is probably up to more than ten types by now. This can only lead to inconsistancies and poor quality control for the mod.

Hows the novel coming?

[GodlikeDennis]

It's infinitely easier to balance the game with every rifle being different than a globally identical weapon. A matchup can be balanced on the premise of Strelky vs Infantry armour in a vacuum as opposed to Ingenery, Strelky, Command Squad, Conscripts, Weapon Crews, Guards, Partisans vs Infantry armour all at once. The balancing process is much more specific and doesn't cause collateral damage. Ingame, you don't even get a massive readout of stats while playing; you just see the effects. As long as it performs OK ingame, that's all people should be worried about, not the specifics of its statistical makeup.

Mosin models are much longer in the internal version already. To me, they actually look odd but I guess I'm just used to the old rifles.

Strelky are stronger than Grens because when you think of Wehr gameplay, they have MGs to stop a frontal assault and flanking units are needed. These flanking units need to be on par/superior to the defending support squad in order to be successful when flanking. BARed rifles for example have a flanking advantage because they are easily stopped by MG42s from the front. If they didn't win when they flank then the game would heavily favour Wehr. Not to mention that very strong weapons are needed once the MGs go away and elite armour spam appears.

[Pac-Fish]

If they didn't win when they flank then the game would heavily favour Wehr. Not to mention that very strong weapons are needed once the MGs go away and elite armour spam appears.

And when a Gren gets his own MG42 . Then you need something a bit better

[Cranialwizard]

It's infinitely easier to balance the game with every rifle being different than a globally identical weapon. A matchup can be balanced on the premise of Strelky vs Infantry armour in a vacuum as opposed to Ingenery, Strelky, Command Squad, Conscripts, Weapon Crews, Guards, Partisans vs Infantry armour all at once. The balancing process is much more specific and doesn't cause collateral damage. Ingame, you don't even get a massive readout of stats while playing; you just see the effects. As long as it performs OK ingame, that's all people should be worried about, not the specifics of its statistical makeup.

This. Many weapons are different for multiple factions.

[Otto Halfhand]

Cranial I don't argue that different factions shouldn't have different weapons or rifle types. When there is reason like between the M3 grease gun and the Thompson SMG it makes sense. Two or more types of Shrek models for german factions or two PTRD models for the same weapon in the same faction is what doesn't make sense to me as a designer and modder, (not as a player). IIRC in EF the CS, ing, cons, Strelky, Guards, Tankhunters, naval infantry, NKVD and partizan all stared out with some version of the soviet wwii rifle which we call the mosin. As near as I can tell two type of mosins and two generic rifles were originally used. IE nine sets of bookeeping became (2x1) + 7x2) = 16 sets ofweapons with IDK say10 variable stats each; > say 160 possible variables to keep track of, and then the process of buff/nerf for balance begins. This is a lot of work. If only 2 types of Mosin are considered, (maybe 3 if the Guards ST40 isn't a Mosin),  the variables are reduced. and maybe only 3-4 of the 10 weapons stats whoud be different for the weapons. I believe the process of implementing balance changes would be much faster and maybe easier.

Edit: Brain fart below. The point is valid I think but shouldn't be with mosin discussion. Too many variables. 

To pull this back to tank hunters. I think there should be one type of single shot PTRD rifle stats. One type of panzerbusch stats and one kind of Shrek stats for EF. the three types of shrek stats, (not artwork ) for PE, Wher and OH should have a single set of stats optimized for the different factions. The question of different perfomance the becomes a squad type issue.  There is more flexibility here as well. Abilities could be grant different squads for different performance. Example Tread breaker for PTRD squad or maybe just TH squads. (ignore that this was tried and found OP. different abilities need not be OP if balancable).

[GodlikeDennis]

Well as a balancer, I'm telling you that it's far easier to make a new weapon, copying the closest stats to what we need from another weapon, and then just modifying the variables we want to. Also, there are FAR more variables than just 10 per weapon. Squad modifiers are messy and leave confusion. Building in unique stats to the weapon itself is far cleaner and keeps all the balance information in one place.

Either way, the discussion is pointless because this is how we do things and as long as it works in game, it shouldn't be the concern of anyone else.

[Tankbuster]

I thought this was a discussion about Mosin and its Carbine models.

[Cranialwizard]

Cranial I don't argue that different factions shouldn't have different weapons or rifle types. When there is reason like between the M3 grease gun and the Thompson SMG it makes sense. Two or more types of Shrek models for german factions or two PTRD models for the same weapon in the same faction is what doesn't make sense to me as a designer and modder, (not as a player). IIRC in EF the CS, ing, cons, Strelky, Guards, Tankhunters, naval infantry, NKVD and partizan all stared out with some version of the soviet wwii rifle which we call the mosin. As near as I can tell two type of mosins and two generic rifles were originally used. IE nine sets of bookeeping became (2x1) + 7x2) = 16 sets ofweapons with IDK say10 variable stats each; > say 160 possible variables to keep track of, and then the process of buff/nerf for balance begins. This is a lot of work. If only 2 types of Mosin are considered, (maybe 3 if the Guards ST40 isn't a Mosin),  the variables are reduced. and maybe only 3-4 of the 10 weapons stats whoud be different for the weapons. I believe the process of implementing balance changes would be much faster and maybe easier.

What I mean by multiple weapon types is that it's easier to have several mosin types rather than 1 mosin type because then we have to cater that single rifle type to fit against all armors and infantry and then we have no way to balance that certain weapon between different squads, meaning that the Mosin for the Ingy would deal the same damage as the Mosin for Guards. For the Guards it would be too weak, for the Ingy it would be too strong.

Same with Kar98ks. Volks have weaker Kars to reflect poor training and not to be too overpowered against Americans. You can also balance the Volk Kar98 against Riflemen or certain types of armor/infantry individually so we can tweak that weapon alone to make sure it's balanced pitch perfect to the time it appears.

Plus you also have to take into account against light vehicles how these weapons would fare. If the Soviets had only 1 type of Mosin-Nagant, then they would be dealing the same damage output to an Armored Car than a Strelky Squad, which have the highest rifle damage to AC's IIRC.

What Dennis says is correct though. This system works, it always has worked, and won't be reverted simply because these numbers are easy to change when we say "Change Strelky Rifle's Penetration" or "Change Ingy Rifle's Damage to..." etc. If we only had one type of rifle, it would require massive amounts of testing and much, much more headaches to balance it from Pioneers to Stormtroopers to Falls.

Case closed, this system will not be changed because it's a lot more simpler and easier to make new weapons than try to give the same weapon to all squad types. This is also why we try to limit the amount of Armor types we make, but occasionally we make new ones like with Sturmovie.

[Otto Halfhand]

@ Dennis and Cranial, Guys do the Balancers actually change the Specs for the different models or not. When you'all call for rollbacks and such like you are paid attention to. If you are not making the design changes the statement about "how it is done" just shifts work to others. The others are trying to get OH off the ground.

Question rifles penetrate armor types, True? If so giving a penetration modifier to different squad types to account for traing and such like makes sense. Many squads have penetration advantages, (negative in some cases), against different squads types.

Doing things the way they have been done in the past is the same as "Fighting the last war". If mass production techniques can win wars, then efficient design techniques can speed mod production and balancing.
@ Tankbuster, sorry about that I'm thinking about  two things at once. Like I said a brain fart.

[Pac-Fish]

Yeah we are far past OT. @Tankbuster: Yeah this is about changing the model, not the weapon

[Blackbishop]

Indeed, it is no secret than we are using inukshuk's weapons for soviets ... at least the SVT-40, the Mosin 1891/30 and the PPSH-41. And these are going to be the "final models" for these weapons .

Atm I can't post screenshots of soviets using them because my PC cannot handle CoH, but I'll post some screenshots eliwood made of the models ^^.

PPSH-41


SVT-40


Mosin


Scoped Mosin

We are keeping our PTRD-41 & DP-28 .

[TheVolskinator]

Case closed, this system will not be changed because it's a lot more simpler and easier to make new weapons than try to give the same weapon to all squad types. This is also why we try to limit the amount of Armor types we make, but occasionally we make new ones like with Sturmovie.

And soviets_is2, is3, isu152, kv1, su85, su85_cage, t34, t34_85, and t70. 

Why are we QQing about balance? I asked a question and Dennis gave a prompt, in depth answer. My main point was the possible adoption of new models sometime in the future.

EDIT: Bishop...damn...new Mosin is sexysauce.

[Pac-Fish]

Those models look real nice 

[Blackbishop]

The only thing missing is a scope for the SVT-40, but I'm sure Robotnik or Walki can make it !

Then the Sniper will use a Scoped SVT40 and the sniper ace a Scoped Mosin.