Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Command Squad and Criticals  (Read 9386 times)

Offline TheVolskinator

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 01:49:19 AM »
The way the Sovs are currently balanced works well with no starting unit. Arguing for the addition of one is a mute point; I'm of the personal opinion that it is impossible to add markers for new factions to allow starting units (this was the original reason given for the lack thereof, correct?).
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Offline Otto Halfhand

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 03:29:45 AM »
I think jojorabbit has work-a-round for the starting squad problem. I cannot help but think a Soviet starting squad would be a good idea. Many people start withoutan inital early build and go a capping instead. I am not sure I buy the Two free cappers to none while we wait for the Famo to arrive arguement.

@ Apemen. My apologies, I did not realize there was a sensitive issue here.
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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2014, 04:37:27 AM »
Ok, I would hate to revive a VERY VERY OLD topic, but this issue is starting to annoy me again and I didn't want to repeat myself with a newer topic. With the recent update for the Soviet Support Barracks become more favorable of as a starter building, the regular barracks has very little use early game, especially for it's weaker/nerfed command squad. With only 4 members, this unit is very vulnerable to sniper attacks. I have posted an issue about the AI automatically targeting the major, but an alternative solution is to make it so that the major survives multiple sniper shots. Previously the squad had 5 members, it was significantly more powerful and the major was less vulnerable to sniper fire. Now, being the only investment of the red army tent early game, I think that the command squad needs a buff (primarily for durability against snipers) for what it really should be.

It is simply ridiculous that a british LT and wehr officer and even KCH, esp with vet can survive 3 sniper hits while the command squad major just goes down in one hit. Now, I know that these individual officers have no body guards to help reinforce but seeing now that they have only 4 members and the Major is usually targetted to die first 99% of the time, I think he needs a little buff. Kind of sucks that I can't use my "not one step back" ability simply because a guy just sniped him. 3 sniper hits may be a little too much, but I personally think because he has body guards that 2 would be just fine.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 06:07:36 AM by 132 »
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Offline Jäger

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2014, 04:58:21 AM »
I see no problems with how Soviets play.

I have evidence showing me almost winning a 2v1 as the USSR, against Ostheer and Wehrmacht, the command squad survived almost the entire battle.
You have the Gaz, use that to kill snipers, this isn't an issue of imbalance, it's an issue of "Get good"

Offline krupp steel

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2014, 05:45:02 AM »
I see no problems with how Soviets play.

I have evidence showing me almost winning a 2v1 as the USSR, against Ostheer and Wehrmacht, the command squad survived almost the entire battle.
You have the Gaz, use that to kill snipers, this isn't an issue of imbalance, it's an issue of "Get good"
Haha. First of all, no contribution to my issue of the command squad. Secondly, the issue of "get good"? How ironic.

Quote from: Jäger link=topic=4772.msg137714#msg137714
I'd like too, I'm no good though.
(please let me be soviets)

I don't think it is right to under estimate someone right away, based on your shallow judgement and reasoning. You never know, you may find out one day that the person you underestimated/made assumptions about was and is one of the top players on the COH leaderboards with a 25 win streak in automatch.

Claiming your words are high value simply because you brag that you have "almost won a game 2v1 as USSR" is very void. Without a valid replay, most likely you were facing 2 easy or normal AI's at the most. And if you even would have come close to winning, it is simply because your enemies had terrible skill or you exploited the Ai's stupidity (sniper spam possible *cough cough*)

But to my point? DID you read what I just said? You must play high resource annihilate games because first of all:

1. Counter sniping with a sniper is much more efficient, especially in this patch, than getting light MG vehicles like the GAZ (also jeep or bike or whatever). Later on it is nothing but there to provide recon and defend against sneaky back capping pioneers.
2. Refering back to #1, the SNIPER is available in the same building in which the GAZ is produced.
3. The most obvious one that relates completely to #1 and #2 - There isn't any GAZ available if you begin with a command squad since the Red Mustering Tent DOES NOT have the Gaz readily available, meaning it is vulnerable to snipers early game. I assume that YOU probably play high resource annihilate games and claim that you are good because you claim to have the Command Squad and the GAZ simultaneously during the first few minutes you start the game.

The question is not of whether your command squad survived the entire battle it is "how you used it in battle and when you retreated it". (For all we know you could of just used it as a capping squad or had it as a pacifist squad)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 05:57:00 AM by 132 »
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Offline Enrique 'Blackbishop' E.

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2014, 05:56:50 AM »
Well, I still think the major should have heroic criticals, so he would get 50% more resistant to sniper fire. The abilities are tied to him after all, so he should be extra-resilent.
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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2014, 06:08:22 AM »
Well, I still think the major should have heroic criticals, so he would get 50% more resistant to sniper fire. The abilities are tied to him after all, so he should be extra-resilent.
Exactly what I mean. 2 Sniper shots are good enough. You could say the same for the Axis skirmish commander (2 sniper shots at these guys bodyguard or officer and they already are at vet 1).
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Offline Jäger

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2014, 06:18:20 AM »
I see no problems with how Soviets play.

I have evidence showing me almost winning a 2v1 as the USSR, against Ostheer and Wehrmacht, the command squad survived almost the entire battle.
You have the Gaz, use that to kill snipers, this isn't an issue of imbalance, it's an issue of "Get good"
Haha. First of all, no contribution to my issue of the command squad. Secondly, the issue of "get good"? How ironic.

Quote from: Jäger link=topic=4772.msg137714#msg137714
I'd like too, I'm no good though.
(please let me be soviets)

I don't think it is right to under estimate someone right away, based on your shallow judgement and reasoning. You never know, you may find out one day that the person you underestimated/made assumptions about was and is one of the top players on the COH leaderboards with a 25 win streak in automatch.

Claiming your words are high value simply because you brag that you have "almost won a game 2v1 as USSR" is very void. Without a valid replay, most likely you were facing 2 easy or normal AI's at the most. And if you even would have come close to winning, it is simply because your enemies had terrible skill or you exploited the Ai's stupidity (sniper spam possible *cough cough*)

But to my point? DID you read what I just said? You must play high resource annihilate games because first of all:

1. Counter sniping with a sniper is much more efficient, especially in this patch, than getting light MG vehicles like the GAZ (also jeep or bike or whatever). Later on it is nothing but there to provide recon and defend against sneaky back capping pioneers.
2. Refering back to #1, the SNIPER is available in the same building in which the GAZ is produced.
3. The most obvious one that relates completely to #1 and #2 - There isn't any GAZ available if you begin with a command squad since the Red Mustering Tent DOES NOT have the Gaz readily available, meaning it is vulnerable to snipers early game. I assume that YOU probably play high resource annihilate games and claim that you are good because you claim to have the Command Squad and the GAZ simultaneously during the first few minutes you start the game.

The question is not of whether your command squad survived the entire battle it is "how you used it in battle and when you retreated it". (For all we know you could of just used it as a capping squad or had it as a pacifist squad)

I don't think you know what Irony is.

Offline chaosval3

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2014, 06:34:40 AM »
Settle down, gentlemen.

The Command squad is an extremely beefy squad, it has very high HP (85 per model IIRC) for a squad that comes earlier than Grens. I doubt making the Major more resilient would be fair. If we do so, the Skirmish Commander should have the same thing though. Also, I would honestly try to avoid any of this 'heroic' armour nonsense. If you get hit by a sniper, you die. That's the whole point of a sniper. While Spotters do have this because of their 2 models, I would suggest avoiding this kind of gimmick as much as possible, especially early game.
Furthermore, the general counter to these squads is supposed to be a sniper, that is why OH sniper is in T1 like CS and SU sniper is in T2 like Skirmish Commander is in T2. We could perhaps try it, but I would suggest it with veterancy or simply tie the abilities to the squad instead of the Major. There are many options.
Finally, do not underestimate the power of a ( especially vetted) CS. In cover alone, it could occupy 2 squads of Landsers due to its sheer health. I remember this happening some games back internally. I think I still have the replay, but it can't be watched due to incompatible player version :/.

PS; I also think that making one member of a squad have Heroic armour, and the rest not, will lead to inconsistencies. Either all, or none. It's simply safer. Remember lads, the time of drastic changes has mostly 'gone and went' as they say.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 06:38:59 AM by chaosval3 »

Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »
Ok, I would hate to revive a VERY VERY OLD topic, but this issue is starting to annoy me again and I didn't want to repeat myself with a newer topic. With the recent update for the Soviet Support Barracks become more favorable of as a starter building, the regular barracks has very little use early game, especially for it's weaker/nerfed command squad. With only 4 members, this unit is very vulnerable to sniper attacks. I have posted an issue about the AI automatically targeting the major, but an alternative solution is to make it so that the major survives multiple sniper shots. Previously the squad had 5 members, it was significantly more powerful and the major was less vulnerable to sniper fire. Now, being the only investment of the red army tent early game, I think that the command squad needs a buff (primarily for durability against snipers) for what it really should be.

It is simply ridiculous that a british LT and wehr officer and even KCH, esp with vet can survive 3 sniper hits while the command squad major just goes down in one hit. Now, I know that these individual officers have no body guards to help reinforce but seeing now that they have only 4 members and the Major is usually targetted to die first 99% of the time, I think he needs a little buff. Kind of sucks that I can't use my "not one step back" ability simply because a guy just sniped him. 3 sniper hits may be a little too much, but I personally think because he has body guards that 2 would be just fine.
The CS has the same effective health like the had before. The squad had 5 members in the past, and now those 4 members share a new armourtype, which is 20% more resisilient to small arms fire. Also, the bodyguard damage has been increased to match the old damage output. I did this change to removed the ridiculous power that this squad got with veterancy and pps submachine guns. The old CS was able to wipe a vet 3 KCH squad easily. Now he can't do that as efficient anymore.

The other reason why the squad member number was reduced is the reason of its global veterancy, which was buffed considerably compared to the old vet (+5% more damage isnt much really). Now you get reduced received accuracy and damage in cover, better capping speed for all units and so on. Actually, I just looked the values up once more, and they're like this:

vet 1 offensive: 10% capping speed/10% rec. supression for all units (pretty mcuh puts conscripts on the supression resistance of riflemen
vet 2 offensive: 5% capping speed/5% rec. supression
vet 3 offensive: 5% capping speed/5% rec. supression

vet 1 defensive: 10% less rec. dmg/5% accuracy in cover
vet 2 defensive: 5% less rec. dmg/accuracy in cover
vet 3 defensive: 5% less rec. dmg/accuracy in cover

(note: vet 3 defensive is 0.9x0.95x0.95=0.81 rec. damage and 0.85 rec. accuracy in cover. So, having a vet 3 command squad gives your units almost a free elite armour upgrade (-25% rec damage/accuracy) ON TOP of your unit's regular veterancy. I hope you can imagine how much of a bonus this is and I'd consider that to be pretty much worth it alone to get the command squad to high veterancy (which is easiest when used earlygame when enemy units don't have weapon upgrades etc.).

The next version will slightly adjust the veterancy to these values:

vet 1 offensive: 10% capping speed/10% rec. supression for all units, 5% less weapon cooldown
vet 2 offensive: 5% capping speed/5% rec. supression, 5% less weapon cooldown
vet 3 offensive: 5% capping speed/5% rec. supression, 5% less weapon cooldown

vet 1 defensive: 5% less rec. dmg/accuracy in cover, 15% less weapon scatter
vet 2 defensive: 5% less rec. dmg/accuracy in cover, 15% less weapon scatter
vet 3 defensive: 5% less rec. dmg/accuracy in cover, 15% less weapon scatter

On top of that the CS himself also gets veterancy bonuses. More sight range, less received damage, less received accuracy. So, the more vet you get the beefier the CS will become, making it easier to keep it alive throughout the game. About the "CS sniped and abilities gone" issue: it's intentional, as you need to click Danko to snipe him individually and it was meant to be a reward for smart play. Take out danko early to remove the huge bonuses he grants to his troops.
I see no problems with how Soviets play.

I have evidence showing me almost winning a 2v1 as the USSR, against Ostheer and Wehrmacht, the command squad survived almost the entire battle.
You have the Gaz, use that to kill snipers, this isn't an issue of imbalance, it's an issue of "Get good"
Haha. First of all, no contribution to my issue of the command squad. Secondly, the issue of "get good"? How ironic.

Quote from: Jäger link=topic=4772.msg137714#msg137714
I'd like too, I'm no good though.
(please let me be soviets)

I don't think it is right to under estimate someone right away, based on your shallow judgement and reasoning. You never know, you may find out one day that the person you underestimated/made assumptions about was and is one of the top players on the COH leaderboards with a 25 win streak in automatch.

Claiming your words are high value simply because you brag that you have "almost won a game 2v1 as USSR" is very void. Without a valid replay, most likely you were facing 2 easy or normal AI's at the most. And if you even would have come close to winning, it is simply because your enemies had terrible skill or you exploited the Ai's stupidity (sniper spam possible *cough cough*)

But to my point? DID you read what I just said? You must play high resource annihilate games because first of all:

1. Counter sniping with a sniper is much more efficient, especially in this patch, than getting light MG vehicles like the GAZ (also jeep or bike or whatever). Later on it is nothing but there to provide recon and defend against sneaky back capping pioneers.
2. Refering back to #1, the SNIPER is available in the same building in which the GAZ is produced.
3. The most obvious one that relates completely to #1 and #2 - There isn't any GAZ available if you begin with a command squad since the Red Mustering Tent DOES NOT have the Gaz readily available, meaning it is vulnerable to snipers early game. I assume that YOU probably play high resource annihilate games and claim that you are good because you claim to have the Command Squad and the GAZ simultaneously during the first few minutes you start the game.

The question is not of whether your command squad survived the entire battle it is "how you used it in battle and when you retreated it". (For all we know you could of just used it as a capping squad or had it as a pacifist squad)

Yes,  but since when t1 has only CS and conscripts as available units?  ::)

You get molotovs, the CS and SPOTTERS. Spotters are the infantry based countersnipe/detection unit for soviets. Put them in cover and they will create "no-go" areas for snipers. All it needs is a bit of foresight where to place it so you don't have to move the spotter around. Hell, you can just build some sandbags with your conscripts and ta-daaa... Cover bonus spotters where you want them to be.

Overall spotters are insanely powerful against units in cover, will countersnipe detected snipers which are in range in 2 hits max and takes at least 3-4 sniper shots to get killed. You can even detect spotters from 40m range by throwing flares.

So, there is your counter snipers. The issue isnt that much with the CS itself imo, but with snipers being broken in CoH in general. We wanted to fix that in the past with our changes to how sniper camo works, but after huge complaining from Killar, Peter and Riggs we removed that feature again. And now we have the vcoh sniper mechanics in ef, too. I could care less tho because I don't use them on purpose.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 04:24:23 PM by Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S. »

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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 05:28:53 PM »
Yes,  but since when t1 has only CS and conscripts as available units?  ::)

You get molotovs, the CS and SPOTTERS. Spotters are the infantry based countersnipe/detection unit for soviets. Put them in cover and they will create "no-go" areas for snipers. All it needs is a bit of foresight where to place it so you don't have to move the spotter around. Hell, you can just build some sandbags with your conscripts and ta-daaa... Cover bonus spotters where you want them to be.

Overall spotters are insanely powerful against units in cover, will countersnipe detected snipers which are in range in 2 hits max and takes at least 3-4 sniper shots to get killed. You can even detect spotters from 40m range by throwing flares.

So, there is your counter snipers. The issue isnt that much with the CS itself imo, but with snipers being broken in CoH in general. We wanted to fix that in the past with our changes to how sniper camo works, but after huge complaining from Killar, Peter and Riggs we removed that feature again. And now we have the vcoh sniper mechanics in ef, too. I could care less tho because I don't use them on purpose.

Ignoring previous off-topic comments aside,

In my experience, it doesn't matter what it is but usually the captain dies no matter who it is killed by (panzer, landsers, or sniper). It just seems to have the #1 priority when you engage the squad no matter what. If the AI sends a sniper in, the major is first to die (I believe the AI uses attack move like any other unit). If I also use attack move with a sniper while 3 conscripts and 1 CS is on the field, the very first person to die is the major. I don't know if it is luck, but overall I think even not clicking the unit at all and using the attack moves or default fire ends up killing the poor guy anyway.

I assume you are asking for every single guy in the 4-man squad to survive 2 sniper hits. That would be plain ridiculous, but what is wrong with letting only the major guy survive on bullet anyway. I think the issue is mainly the priority of the major model itself rather than how strong he is. Just like how light mg vehicles automatically target snipers, everyone automatically targets the major guy first when they get the chance.

The problem is that previously if you wanted conscripts you needed to build a red army mustering tent which also meant you also got to get a CS. That is the trade off between beginning with full-on infantry or support units (just like the USA WSC or barracks).

But right now, that is not the case. Recently, most people start off with the Support barracks because they feel that the early snipers, mgs, gaz, and a wider variety of units produced later on are much more beneficial than for getting a tent just to get a single CS squad early game. I think that this should not always be the case. If I had the choice between multiple powerful support units or a single powerful infantry squad, I probably would chose the support units (in other words T2). This is because combined arms always is the better way to start off the game, especially when your enemy has the option to build snipers.

However, if the CS squad was a beast and had the power that was equivalent to KCH or Jagers w/ mkb(H) upgrade, I would have probably picked this unit instead (and gone T1 because it would have been worth it). So the point is, I think that because conscripts are available without T1, the T1 building has significantly lost popularity over the T2 building in the course of the early game phase decisions.

One problem I see with CS is that even though it has high HP, it does not return much damage as they should be doing to make up for not having the T2 units. For example, in a 1v1 situation with the CS and the Skirmish commander, the skirmish commander wins almost all the time since their G43s do a fierce amount of damage. Im not sure about the CS weapons, but they do seem pretty weak relative to how much health they have. Again, if they had more powerful weapons and damage, I could see people choosing T1 EARLY ON rather than T2.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 05:35:07 PM by 132 »
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Offline chaosval3

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 06:00:41 PM »
Well, early on, if you don't get any form of main line infantry you will lack map control. Weapon teams sure a great, but if they are forced off capping stuff back is extremely hard. Basically, Conscripts are a must. I suppose we couldn't implement the Warhammer 40K DOWII mechanic where the squad leader always dies last on the CS and SC squads? It's a pretty neat future imo.

I don't mind really. Getting a vetted CS is difficult since it gets focused fire like hell. However, giving him heroic armour won't solve the other issues you mentioned such as his resilience against tank shots and give him new a larger weakness to fire, which is also a great counter early on. 

About T1, not only are the Spotters extremely underrated, but you also need the building if you want any serious infantry squad during the game( apart from doctrines I suppose). Spotters are basically healthier semi-snipers. Some of us in the team can definetely testify for their usefulness. Vet 2 spotters do bonkers damage. Everyone's getting snipers, but no spotters? Why? They are underrated as hell, I love them personally.

About the CS and SC( funny, isn't it :P?) mechanic. The units are reasonably new so their matchup stats might not be ideal yet. CS is beefier and is basically a slightly more defensive unit compared to SC, while the SC is a more offensive unit since he has G43 that increase in ROF when closing in on a target. This is compensated by one less model. So yeah, it should technically depend on cover when CS and SC face each other.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 06:02:55 PM by chaosval3 »

Offline Enrique 'Blackbishop' E.

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 07:57:14 PM »
If I recall correctly, the armour known as paper armour for infantry due to the flammability weakness is the elite not the heroic.

We can always add modifiers to make the leaders, let's say, less attractive to bullets rather than the rest of the squad if that's needed.
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Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2014, 08:23:16 PM »
The thing is that this was intentional. Snipe CS - all bonuses gone to reward "smart play". I never much liked that feature, so it would be fine to remove it.

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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Command Squad and Starting Squad
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2014, 09:19:43 PM »
Why not give the CS SVT 40s as a default weapon or upgrade? I see that the skirmish commander from OH has g43s, so it would make sense that the bodyguards have decent guns to their counterparts. After all G43=SVT40.

But if its too powerful to give the CS the guard SVT40s, we could always just give them the weaker Naval Infantry SVTs. After all, they are body guards of an important major and should be given better weapons than a regular conscript would get.
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