[1.72]SU vs PE

[krupp steel]

I have been playing some AI games latley as the Soviet Union (Im having trouble with trying to get multiplayer) and in my experience it appears that PE can have more of a problem against the Soviets than the Soviets do against the Wehrmacht.

In early game, Conscripts that cost 35 less manpower than a PG squad and can simply charge them head on and win, especially the molotovs which devastate PE infantry due to their low health and armor type.  Also, it is easy to get early AT gun and tank hunters which could easily counter the AC rush and even a P4 too.  Also, in a battle of 2 PGs and 1 Strelky they can take 1 PG squad before they retreat assuming equal cover, not to mention 350 manpower command squad can take on 2 PGs.  Even if you stick a inginery squad in a building, it could do some damage against the PG too.  I don't know if it is me, or is Soviet Infantry > PE infantry?  Not to mention they got access to devastating SMGs and snipers/Guards which would render Assault Grenadiers useless?

[Wekwekboris]

I find Panzer Grenadiers kill my Strelki. Guards and Snipers no Contest. I find AT guns too weak for AC and the PZIV. I use my Tank Hunters which can get killed by the Panzer Grens. Only time I can win is when I get my first T-34/85s out or 2 Guards, 2 TH and 2 T-90s

[Bandaro]

I played a lot of games Rus vs my friend (EXITIITemplariusz, 16 1v1 PE) and PE is better than Rus. His grens can have 10 kills and don't loose a man. AC's are really strong if your enemy is good.

I don't know if it is me, or is Soviet Infantry > PE infantry?

Not in early, but all infantry > PE infantry. US Riflemans have the best vets on infantry in game. Also riflemans have 6x55 hp, pg's 3x55. Wh have vets, strong storms, cross.  Brit have OP blob. Rus have strong cs and guards.

Also, it is easy to get early AT gun and tank hunters which could easily counter the AC rush and even a P4 too.

In next version tank hunters will be delate. Alone ATG can't fight with AC's.

And what are the lvl 1v1 of your opponents?

[neosdark]

You're getting rid of Tank Hunters!??!?!?!

What is this blasphemy?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

You're getting rid of Tank Hunters!??!?!?!

What is this blasphemy?

Jupp. Tank hunters are too weak and have no chance to fight armour. The system was changed.
Russian Strelkys will use anti tank grenades. Combination of a "tank stun grenade" - used by your infantry -
will allow your ZiS-anti tank gun to deal with enemy's armour.
When u need "strong anti tank infantry" u can play propaganda doctrine with naval guards.

[Dreamerbg]

U wont miss TH that much, dont worry

[Nils18]

Do we get a new unit in return for the AT boys?

[Dreamerbg]

New unit - yes; in return for the AT boys - no

[neox88]

You're getting rid of Tank Hunters!??!?!?!

What is this blasphemy?

Jupp. Tank hunters are too weak and have no chance to fight armour. The system was changed.
Russian Strelkys will use anti tank grenades. Combination of a "tank stun grenade" - used by your infantry -
will allow your ZiS-anti tank gun to deal with enemy's armour.
When u need "strong anti tank infantry" u can play propaganda doctrine with naval guards.

what?I use tank hunters most of the time,and ]this is just not true at all, tank hunters are great vs light vehicles,marders, even tanks like stugs when they are upgraded. I even destroyed a panther with 3 squads of tank hunters! 3 or 4 tank hunter squads (upgraded) are serious threat for all enemy armour!they can just blast light tanks and vehicles into shreads very easily!Also,they are cheap, and definetely much much better than idiotic american rangers that cant hit anything,they are just awful anti tank infantry..anyway, if you think that tank hunters are weak, then make them a bit stronger, kicking them out of the game is just not good.

[EasyCalic]

Also,they are cheap, and definetely much much better than idiotic american rangers that cant hit anything,they are just awful anti tank infantry..

But rangers are not meant to be AT, they their 'zookas are meant to give the finger to every and all vehicles and light tanks. And let's not forget the Ranger's actual role as anti infantry.

(Now someone please put this back on track. :V)

[Joshua9]

Wow,

yeah, tank hunters are absolute beasts against vehicles with the support of...anything really, and as an added bonus have an uncanny ability to assasinate snipers at range from lucky ptrd shots. I will second that they are insanely cheap and produce really fast!  They are also an early, multipurpose and scaling, non-doctrinal answer to enemy bunkers.

They get owned by oswinds and acs(PE PIV's absolutely suck against them though), and will do a poor job of advancing on vehicles that aren't overextended(though with the breakthrough sprint boost or the command squad rush they can often put any big tank trying to run home in its grave).  Thankfully they get chewed up by infantry, but if you can gain map superiority(which you should do) before the big tanks start appearing, you can place a few good tank mines and deny the enemy any shock value for that vehicle hitting the field.  Bring up an at gun, or a doctrinal SU?(the breakthrough AT option) or an upgraded t-34 or two and your opponent will seriously have a hard time pushing back onto the map, until something big pops like a tiger ace in support of a panther or 2(kt is just so slow it isn't going to have the same impact, especially if it hits a mine).

That said, I'm interested in seeing how the game might play out without them.  They were at one time my most hated unit.  Cut them though and I'm wondering how exactly you expect russia to handle early PE IHT rushes.  You going to force the t-2 tech to the mortar/at gun option?  Units that have to get close to throw grenades are going to fail, which is why stickies are not a functional deterrent to the infantry half-track rush with americans.  Tank hunters do a very effective job of at least keeping the half-tracks back of the army for nothing more than reinforcement(the rush still feels strong inspite of that).

[Dreamerbg]

You're getting rid of Tank Hunters!??!?!?!

What is this blasphemy?

Jupp. Tank hunters are too weak and have no chance to fight armour. The system was changed.
Russian Strelkys will use anti tank grenades. Combination of a "tank stun grenade" - used by your infantry -
will allow your ZiS-anti tank gun to deal with enemy's armour.
When u need "strong anti tank infantry" u can play propaganda doctrine with naval guards.

what?I use tank hunters most of the time,and ]this is just not true at all, tank hunters are great vs light vehicles,marders, even tanks like stugs when they are upgraded. I even destroyed a panther with 3 squads of tank hunters! 3 or 4 tank hunter squads (upgraded) are serious threat for all enemy armour!they can just blast light tanks and vehicles into shreads very easily!Also,they are cheap, and definetely much much better than idiotic american rangers that cant hit anything,they are just awful anti tank infantry..anyway, if you think that tank hunters are weak, then make them a bit stronger, kicking them out of the game is just not good.

You almost completle explain why they are OP and why its a good call to remove them 

[Jäger]

I guess I'm not updating EF anymore.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

When u need anti tank rifles u can still play Propaganda-doctrine and call-in navalguards. This guys can still be equipped with PTRDs.

[Joshua9]

But at 2 command points, that's not a solution against the infantry halftrack rush.  You aren't likely to even have 1 cp by that point in the game, so your only bet is to get as fast an at gun as possible. I don't kow that this is bad neccessarily, but it does really seem to lock in your tech choices in this matchup.  This will basically be the same and only path against a potential fast armored car.  And there's no such thing as stall teching to a t-70 as a counter because it takes longer to get to than the american m-8, by which time the damage should be done.

I know this is all hypothetical because I haven't played this myself, but for those of you who have, you've looked at this in testing and haven't seen a problem with it?  If there's not a problem, I won't miss them.  My worthy opponent on the other hand, may have quite the hissey fit when he sees the change as they are clearly his favorite unit in the game.  Maybe he'll just gravitate to the Ostheer.