57mm AT cannon ZiS-2

[Artillerist]

ZiS-2 was, at average, the most effective AT gun of WWII. At usual "open-fire" range of WW II, 300-500m, only 1-2 hits from that hun was lethal for every German panzer (exclude KingTiger and Ferdinand, wich could be burned only from <100m range). In service, many veterans recall this cannon directly as "Tiger killer".

It is very nice that we have this weapon in game.

But a model of this gun is still missing (M-1 is used instead of it). Any chanse to see this WONDERFULL model?


Also, IMHO ZiS-2 is somewhat underpowerred in Game. It is nedd OR increase damage (it is need more than 3 shots to kill Pz.IV - noncence!), OR to give it ability to "Hide" like PaK-38 od Wehr now have.


ZiS-2
Number built   10,016
Weight   1,250 kg (2756 lbs)
Height   1.37 m (4.5 ft)
Caliber   57 mm (2.24 in)
Breech   vertical block
Carriage   split trail
Elevation   -5° to 25°
Traverse   56°
Rate of fire   up to 25 rounds per minute
Maximum range   8.4 km (5.21 mi)

Armour-piercing Shell BR-271 (used from 1941)
Muzzle velocity - 990m/s
At 1000m range pierced 74mm armour (with angle 60*) and 90mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 500m range pierced 84mm armour (with angle 60*) and 103mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 100m range pierced 93mm armour (with angle 60*) and 114mm armour (with 90* angle)
Undercaliber armour-piercing shell of the bobbin form BR-271P (used from late spring 1943)
Muzzle velocity - 1270 m/s
At 1000m range pierced 83mm armour (with angle 60*) and 101mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 500m range pierced 120mm armour (with angle 60*) and 147mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 100m range pierced 155mm armour (with angle 60*) and 190mm armour (with 90* angle)
High-Explosive-Splitter shell UO-271U (used from 1941)
Muzzle velocity - 706 m/s
Weight - 3,4kg, (contained 0,220kg of explosive)
Max. range - 8.400m
Anti-personnel Case-shot USch-271 (used from jan 1945)
Weight 3,66kg (contained 324 bullets)
Effective fire range up to 200m.

Compared to German Pak-38 (50mm):
Pak-38's weight is 120 lower, but ZiS-2 had much better armor-piercing abilityes, Shell weight, muzzle velocity. Also, Pak-38 had damasking effect when shooting because of barrel break.


Compared to English 6-pdr Mk.II (57mm):
6-pdr Mk.II's wight is 100kg higher, in the same time it has lower muzzle velocity, lighter Shell and bad armor-piercing abilityes. Advantages of 6-pdr Mk.II compared to ZiS-2 is much better Traverse Angle (90* to 57*).

Compared to American M.1 (57mm):
M.1 is heavier than ZiS-2 to 200kg, but muzzle velocity, Shell, armor-piercing abilityes is still weak compare to ZiS-2.

Compared to German Pak-40 (75mm):
In comparison with more high-class gun — German 75-mm an anti-tank gun the Pak 40 also are obvious advantages of the Soviet gun which, despite smaller calibre, almost on 400 kg the smaller weight and absence barrel brakes, has on 220 km/s higher initial speed that, despite more than twice heavier shell of the German gun, gives ZiS-2 advantage in settlement armour-piercing ability. At the same time, in practice of advantage ZiS-2 were a little levelled for more quality account of German armour-piercing shells. Surpass ZiS-2 on settlement armour-piercing ability only powerful, anti-tank guns which have appeared in 1943-1944, such as British 76-mm Q.F could. 17 Pounder in weight more than two tons, German 88-mm Pak in 43/41 weight more than 4 tons and 100-mm Soviet BS-3 in weight more than three tons, and also small-scale German 75/50-мм anti-tank gun Pak 41 with the conic channel of a trunk. Also, the worst disadvantage of Pak-40 was that "No Step Aside" stile of AT defence - after only 2-3 shots, it was impossible to remove it or even turn it to change position when Soviet Tanks were moved to flanks. It just easily digged it legs into the ground, and it was usually need a tracktor to "pull it up" from the ground.
ZiS-2, despite not the best traverse angle, was very easy to handle even with crew of two soldiers to change section of fire.

ZiS-2 were used and in fight for Berlin, sometimes carrying out unusual functions for anti-tank tools. So, on April, 29th, 1945 320th Guards istrebitelno-anti-tank regiment has appeared on a way of the German parts breaking from Halb "sack". The fastened fight reminded battles of Napoleonic times: Germans practically had no armoured vechicles and attacked gun positions in the big weights of infantry, and calculations ZiS-2 answered case-shot with fire from close distances. As it has been noted in the report of connection:
"Weights of corpses of the opponent rolled round gun positions, and the opponent all continued to press"
In a course of action by a regiment it has been destroyed to 420 and it is taken prisoner 250 German soldiers and officers, and also it is lined two armoured troop-carriers. Own losses have made 9 persons the killed and 22 wounded men.

To developers: I have full material about this cannon: factory drawings, original service manuals e.t.c. I will share them if You need it!

Best wishes!
P.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!
The only solution will be to rename that upgrade to "Research advanced undercaliber AP shell"

[WartyX]

P.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!

Download the new patch.

[Artillerist]

WartyX - I have it already, just feiw minutes after it was released.

But may be I just had not noted changes.

Sorry if I am wrong.

[Zerstörer]

What you need to understand is that historical accuracy has little to do with vanila gameplay. You'd never have an AT gun killing aPzIV with 3 shots...that's ludicrous in balance terms.

And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

[Strayker]

It would be nice to see this great looking model of ZIS-2 in-game. Anyway it looks quite finished, so i wonder why devs used the american model instead. But as for its firepower ill wont call it underpowered, i think its firepower is quite great, it tooks only two shots to destroy a Puma. Ofcourse only when you have two at a same time...so one shot from each, because Puma will easily flank it if you have only one and kill the crew members. In most occasions you dont have any chance to react, or to somehow save it. The worst thing isnt exactly the loss of this gun, but problem that happens afterwards. You cant retake that gun, but germans can and they will likely do so. Ive mentioned this in my own thread. So Perhaps not the firepower of ZIS-2 needs to be improved, but the survivability of its crew.

P.S: Ive did not tried the new 1.02 patch however so maybe something from my suggestions will be outdated. I just hope the crew can take more shots and not die so easily...

[guynumber7]

I dont get why they say Zis 2 tigers arent your friend...ZIS2 was best russian at gun with long barrel and great penetration that could probably kill tigers. It was 76mm ZIS3 that couldnt kill tigers, but ZIS3 was more of a field gun.

[Artillerist]

What you need to understand is that historical accuracy has little to do with vanila gameplay. You'd never have an AT gun killing aPzIV with 3 shots...that's ludicrous in balance terms.

And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

Played 4 games yesterday...

1. I am perfectly understand that vanilla game is far from Real Life. I accept that ZiS-2 will not kill a Tiger with 1 shot in frontal armour - because it is impossible to realize it in game by many reasons. Thats ok.

2. In the same time, we have 50mm Pak-38, wich is killing T-34 in 3 shots (noncence iRL). T-34 had better armour than Pz.4, and ZiS-2 is much better than Pak-38 - but still things are as it is in game...

3. I agree with its damage, but survivability of crew is very low and reinforcement price (110mp) is too high. The only solution to inproove it is to give ZiS-2 an ability to "hide" like Pak-38 and PTRD squad.

4. I think, at least ZiS-2 must be not the worse (in "damage" characters) then Pak-38 and 57mm M1/M2. If You dont want to improove it al little, pls dont make it worse! It is just not fair...

P.S. I see that SA is much weakened now, but for me as a russian it is ok - it is more interesting to fight vs Axis... Even if I will have just sticks and bricks to throw on Panzer As I live in Stalingrad, I always play in "No step aside" tacktics But I take ZiS-2 close to my heart only because of 1 main reason: my grangrandfather was an artilleryman (same as me and my father), he fought from 6.1941 to 3.1944 in Anti-tank artillery, equipped with 45mm AT gun and from mid1943 - with ZiS-2. To his last combat in Belarus', when his battery 100% get killed, he was able to destroy 12 german tanks personally, including 2 Tigers and 3 StuGs. So, I have a really pain when I see that ZiS-2 is SO underpowered ...
Post Merge: January 31, 2010, 08:37:07 PM

And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

P.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!

Download the new patch.

Ok, I have 1.03 now.
Upgrade states: "Кумулятивные снаряды" (Cumulative AT shells). So... It needs just change test. Best of all to text "Undercaliber AP shells".

[UeArtemis]

I will change, but in the original were:

ZiS-2 HEAT rounds => Cumulative AT shells

High explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warheads are made of an explosive shaped charge that uses the Neumann effect (a development of the Munroe effect) to create a very high-velocity jet of metal in a state of superplasticity that can punch through solid armor.

[Artillerist]

Artemis - but HEAT shells were not used in WWII with ZiS-2.

Actually, HEAT shells were researched and producted mainly for howitzers (wich have low muzzele velocity, and not able to pierce an armour with AP shell), to give them ability to outfight german tank if need.

Appeareing a heavy german tanks (Pz.V Panther and  Pz.VI Tiger) managed Soviet enguneers to research undercaliber AP shell, with very high muzzle velocity (~1.300 m/s) and wolfram-carbid head. THIS is a good change for "Heat shells" for CoH:EF.

[Zerstörer]

Low quality materials used on soviet shells in WW2 era dramatically reduced the life span of gun barrels which is why they were not adopted in most cases, not because of their lack of penetration abilities.

Gaming wise, we've upped the penetration of the Zis when compared to the 57 against heavy german armour making it a bit more reliable without the need of AP rounds. Also we don't want to use AP rounds as its an 'allies thing' really. Pak is bugged due to the 3 bonus shots otherwise it wouldn't compare that favorably with the Zis2

[Artillerist]

Zerstorer:

1. ZiS-3, BS-3 and M-30, wich were built in 43-45 time, were still in service up to mid 80's. Without any replasement of barrels. There was a long discussion in other "Artillery forum", were many officers discussed that weapon. And all of them noted, that that weapon, built in war time, were in exellent quility, and very easy to repair and very hard to damage due service faults. Yes, it was a problem with faults in process of shell production, wich resulted in large numbers of underpowered AP shells (maily in 42-43). But quality of weapon itself was not the problem.

2. Gaming. I dont ask to make AP shells in game for ZiS-2. I just ask to rename "upgrade" Anyway it is "improove" in game. And it will be just more correct

[Zerstörer]

The weapons themselves where durable easy to maintain but of low quality...they had to be due to the low quality gunpowder used in the shells which reduced the life expectancy of gun barrels...HVAP shells were far worse...but anyways...nuff historical stuff

[Artillerist]

Mate - there are no F-16 or Abrams in WWII game - because it is another time period.

Cumulative AP shells for ZiS-2 is:
1. Out of time, more than 10 years.
2. Only in research status, and never produced.

[Artillerist]

Zerstörer, good evening!

Any chance to see my beloved ZiS-2 model in game?

Best wishes

[Blackbishop]

Well, I'm not Zerstörer but there is a ZiS-2 skin finished, but I don't know if the unit is ready for the next patch though.



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