Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: Versedhorison on June 16, 2010, 09:35:35 AM
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okay so in regards to medium tanks for the ostheer I think we can narrow it down for the ostheer to at least two I see that would fit in CoH and that would have to be the panzer IV or some varient of it or the panther. Now I know some people want the panzer III in the ostheer too so do I however I don't see it as a comparable tank to that of the T-34 or the sherman or cromwell in a game like CoH. If the panzer III gets in the ostheer it will probably be an earier tank than the main late game tanks. So what would people preffer to see in terms of the factory based tanks?
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The panther is heavy tank, not medium.
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I know but in terms of company of heroes I'm kinda reffering to each factions mainstay tank.
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The Panzer III is equal to the Sharman in earlier version and superior in the later ones. Also the late Panzer III is a hard fight for the T-34. Its armour is thicker (but not sloped) and the gun has at least the same penetration.
Ingame it would be a tank which has a little less armour than the Pzkw IV but better penetration against tanks with its 50mm canon (long one)!
The Panzer IV shouldnt be in the Ostheer, because we do want it to be original. And the Pz IV is simply overused.
The Panther is offically a medium tank, thats correct. But in terms of CoH it is a heavy one. It also has "heavy Crush" as the only regual buildable tank without an upgrade.
Its performance against other tanks is quite outstanding and the only tank which can beat it in a one on one is the pershing or (panther without vet) the IS-2.
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I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.
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Now I personally have a problem seeing a panzer III being an equal to the Sherman. The Sherman had better armour , was faster and the panzer III had an all round inferior gun (yes even to the 75mm Sherman gun) which couldn't penetrate the T34 front armour in most instances. As I said before I can see it in the ostheer as an early tank but not a main tank to be compared with the other allied tanks.
Also yes I'd like to see more different tanks however the germans only built 9 types of tanks and I only see five fitting in CoH and four are already used so we'll probably have to reuse some.
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Also yes I'd like to see more different tanks however the germans only built 9 types of tanks and I only see five fitting in CoH
You gotta be joking. There is one hell of varity.
I dont want tanks that are in the game already.
And thats what everybody who wants a great ostheer has to want.
Also the sherman was called "Pappe-Panzer" by my grandfather once we were talking about it. It means something like "carton-tank" because almost everything the shot at them penetrated thier armour and made thier muniton explode.
The Sherman as we got it in CoH is super over powered for the reason of balance, and thats quite ok.
Having a early/mid game support tank with the panzer III is a good idea, since its armour was equal/better (version dependent) than the one of the M4.
At the moment the only tank the community consider to be in the OstH. as well - is the Panther.
Also there are tons of variations of the Pz. 4 - for example 6 different "jagdpanzer IV" which would fit quite good. But the usual one - being in use twice already - is no option.
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Personally I would love to see the Ostheer have both a Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 but i would love to see variants to make the Panzer 3 a MBT while the Panzer 4 becomes more like a support to the Panzer 3.
My idea (I used it in my Ost concept) was to have numerous possible upgrades for the Panzer 3 and Panzer 4, but while the Panzer 3 recieved Weapons or Armor upgrades, or total conversion into a new tank (Getting the 50mm long gun, side-skirts or conversion to the StuG 3 or a variant of it)
The Panzer 4 become more of a support tank with a Command Tank upgrade (Panzerbefehlswagen IV) , a Brummbär conversion for infantry support, or a conversion into a Flakpanzer IV Möbelwagen to shoot down allied planes and pesky Paras.
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Also yes I'd like to see more different tanks however the germans only built 9 types of tanks and I only see five fitting in CoH
You gotta be joking. There is one hell of varity.
Having a early/mid game support tank with the panzer III is a good idea, since its armour was equal/better (version dependent) than the one of the M4.
No I'm not joking the only tanks were the panzer I - VI plus the panzer 35, panzer 38 and the tiger II. There were many self propelled guns/tank destroyers but I'm purely talking about tanks.
Also the most up armoured version of the panzer III had 70mm of armour Max, whereas the sherman had 63mm of armour Max that was sloped too, making it better than the panzer III.
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Also yes I'd like to see more different tanks however the germans only built 9 types of tanks and I only see five fitting in CoH
You gotta be joking. There is one hell of varity.
Having a early/mid game support tank with the panzer III is a good idea, since its armour was equal/better (version dependent) than the one of the M4.
No I'm not joking the only tanks were the panzer I - VI plus the panzer 35, panzer 38 and the tiger II. There were many self propelled guns/tank destroyers but I'm purely talking about tanks.
Also the most up armoured version of the panzer III had 70mm of armour Max, whereas the sherman had 63mm of armour Max that was sloped too, making it better than the panzer III.
Tank destroyers are sometimes called tanks too.
Alongside the PzII (or a quad halftrack), PzIII and buildable Tiger I (one on the field?) there can also be:
StugIII with long gun upgrade
JagdpanzerIV with a Panthers gun and similar armor
Elephant.
This many medium/heavy vechicles (+ Wespe SP gun) are enough to create a fraction.
Theres no need to create a 3rd PzIV/Panther.
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Panzer III and Nashorn i think a great combination... :)
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Panzer III and Nashorn i think a great combination... :)
I dont like the Nashorn concept (long range tank killer) becouse Marders and Gwagons allready do massive dmg (150 and 250) at long ranges (60).
There shouldnt be a vechicle that 2 shot kills a firefly or takes out a 17lbs emplacement without being in range of this gun.
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but against infantry is less usable also it can cost a bit more just to prevent spaming
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I think in the Eastern Front there was an order, that the Panzer III tank had to support the Tiger tanks. I don't remember exactly where I read it, but I think it can be implement to the Ostheer. Maybe Lord Rommel knows it, but I recall that this doctrine existed. And that was a lots of variants of the panzer tanks during the war:
Panzer I
Panzer I SiG 33
PanzerJager I
Panzer II
Sturmpanzer II (omly 14 existed)
Panzer 2 ausf. L was better equipped than the A variant
Panzer III (with extra armour, lots of gun upgrade)
Panzer IV and V (already discussed)
And the self-propelled tank hunters and assault guns.
For AA tanks ther are still the Möbelwagen or the Versuchsflakwagen Pz.Sfl.IV (grille 10)
Or VK1602??? but I think that was just a prototype.
Post Merge: June 16, 2010, 03:16:46 PM
Damn, but some of these aren't fought in the eastern Front. I'm only gathered these for examples. :) It's 11 pm in here and I'm a bit slow. :P
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The Panzer III Ausf. N was part of the first deployment of the "schwere Heeres-Panzerabteilung" - the Tiger-groups.
In 1942 a Tiger-Abteilung had 20 Tiger I and 16 Panzer III.
2 Tiger I and 2 Pz III formed a "Zug".
4 "Züge" formed 2 companies.
4 Tigers were reserved for the commanding staff [ Stabswagen ].
Mid 1943 Tiger-Abteilungen send their Panzer III back at home because from now Henschel could build enough Tigers to supply Tiger-Abteilungen with the full strength of 45 Tiger tanks.
So all in all for a period of time Panzer III was a medium support tank for the Tigers. Panzer III should profect Tiger I against Infantry and other soft targets.
The Panzer III Ausf. N got "hollow charge grenades" to be able to destroy heavy russian tanks.
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I dont like the Nashorn concept (long range tank killer) becouse Marders and Gwagons allready do massive dmg (150 and 250) at long ranges (60).
There shouldnt be a vechicle that 2 shot kills a firefly or takes out a 17lbs emplacement without being in range of this gun.
but against infantry is less usable also it can cost a bit more just to prevent spaming
Its hard to be less usable vs infantry than a MarderIII.
Anyway, if there will be a Nashorn it shouldnt have more range, nor do more dmg than a Gwagon.
The only thing it can be better at is armor type (Hummel),
little More HP (400-450) and armor penetration.
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The panther is heavy tank, not medium.
Actually it's a medium tank.
@Topic
Panzer IV to counter T34, Panzer V to counter IS-2
i want both
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i would personally like to see the panzer 3 and the tiger form the armored force of the ostheer. (http://BUNDES~1)
Post Merge: June 17, 2010, 11:14:04 AM
panzer 3 is a must so is buildable tigers
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The Panzer III Ausf. N was part of the first deployment of the "schwere Heeres-Panzerabteilung" - the Tiger-groups.
In 1942 a Tiger-Abteilung had 20 Tiger I and 16 Panzer III.
2 Tiger I and 2 Pz III formed a "Zug".
4 "Züge" formed 2 companies.
4 Tigers were reserved for the commanding staff [ Stabswagen ].
Mid 1943 Tiger-Abteilungen send their Panzer III back at home because from now Henschel could build enough Tigers to supply Tiger-Abteilungen with the full strength of 45 Tiger tanks.
So all in all for a period of time Panzer III was a medium support tank for the Tigers. Panzer III should profect Tiger I against Infantry and other soft targets.
The Panzer III Ausf. N got "hollow charge grenades" to be able to destroy heavy russian tanks.
Woow that does sound really nice. That would fit in very well in the game. oO
having 2 tigers on the field and Pz. 3's (with the abilites to explained) would be kinda out standing 8)
And who the hell wants Pz4 vs T-34
and Panther Vs IS-2? Do you want another Wehrmacht?
hell, no.
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I dont like the Nashorn concept (long range tank killer) becouse Marders and Gwagons allready do massive dmg (150 and 250) at long ranges (60).
There shouldnt be a vechicle that 2 shot kills a firefly or takes out a 17lbs emplacement without being in range of this gun.
but against infantry is less usable also it can cost a bit more just to prevent spaming
Its hard to be less usable vs infantry than a MarderIII.
Anyway, if there will be a Nashorn it shouldnt have more range, nor do more dmg than a Gwagon.
The only thing it can be better at is armor type (Hummel),
little More HP (400-450) and armor penetration.
i just think its not a bad idea to have it wehrmacht have panzerjager PE have it and ostheer should too, this is from wikipedia about Nahsorn
"After the first German experiences with the newer Soviet tanks like the T-34 or the Kliment Voroshilov tank during Operation Barbarossa, the need for a Panzerjäger capable of destroying these heavily armoured tanks became clear.
Nashorn's gun was one of the most effective anti-tank guns deployed during the war.
The Hornisse/Nashorn made its debut during the Battle of Kursk, where they performed well. The ability to engage the enemy at long distances negated the disadvantages of light armour and a high profile and revealed the weapon was suited to the open, flat landscape of much of Russia."
so it think it represent ostheer well
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The Panzer III Ausf. N was part of the first deployment of the "schwere Heeres-Panzerabteilung" - the Tiger-groups.
In 1942 a Tiger-Abteilung had 20 Tiger I and 16 Panzer III.
2 Tiger I and 2 Pz III formed a "Zug".
4 "Züge" formed 2 companies.
4 Tigers were reserved for the commanding staff [ Stabswagen ].
Mid 1943 Tiger-Abteilungen send their Panzer III back at home because from now Henschel could build enough Tigers to supply Tiger-Abteilungen with the full strength of 45 Tiger tanks.
So all in all for a period of time Panzer III was a medium support tank for the Tigers. Panzer III should profect Tiger I against Infantry and other soft targets.
The Panzer III Ausf. N got "hollow charge grenades" to be able to destroy heavy russian tanks.
Woow that does sound really nice. That would fit in very well in the game. oO
having 2 tigers on the field and Pz. 3's (with the abilites to explained) would be kinda out standing 8)
And who the hell wants Pz4 vs T-34
and Panther Vs IS-2? Do you want another Wehrmacht?
hell, no.
good idea
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The Panzer III Ausf. N was part of the first deployment of the "schwere Heeres-Panzerabteilung" - the Tiger-groups.
In 1942 a Tiger-Abteilung had 20 Tiger I and 16 Panzer III.
2 Tiger I and 2 Pz III formed a "Zug".
4 "Züge" formed 2 companies.
4 Tigers were reserved for the commanding staff [ Stabswagen ].
Mid 1943 Tiger-Abteilungen send their Panzer III back at home because from now Henschel could build enough Tigers to supply Tiger-Abteilungen with the full strength of 45 Tiger tanks.
So all in all for a period of time Panzer III was a medium support tank for the Tigers. Panzer III should profect Tiger I against Infantry and other soft targets.
The Panzer III Ausf. N got "hollow charge grenades" to be able to destroy heavy russian tanks.
Woow that does sound really nice. That would fit in very well in the game. oO
having 2 tigers on the field and Pz. 3's (with the abilites to explained) would be kinda out standing 8)
And who the hell wants Pz4 vs T-34
and Panther Vs IS-2? Do you want another Wehrmacht?
hell, no.
Well the thing is the whermacht faction in CoH is well the best representation of the whermacht in 1944 operating in all of europe. The whermacht faction in CoH would be simmilar to just about any division picked at random from either the eastern, western or itallian front. The PE is a bit different probably focusing on maybe one or two specific divisions but it's really there for mixing up the gameplay. Also remember that the panzer IV and the panther were the main tanks of the whermacht (IRL) so its no surprise that they are both in each german faction. I personally wouldn't be surprised to see either or both panther or panzer IV in the ostheer but its up to the devs how they make this faction.
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To be quite honest, I think the Ostheer, conceived as a German-centric faction, should be scrapped. I mean, what was the rationale behind making the Ostheer? That because you had the Soviets, you had to have the Germans?
We already had the Germans. PE and Wehrmacht. They are good enough at representing all aspects of the German armies, and... do we REALLY need a THIRD German faction?
The way I see it, Ostheer should either be scrapped, or be reengineered into a new faction that relied completely on foreign troops. Take basic German units like Stugs, PIVs and Grenadiers, and then slap in the allies the Germans had on the Eastern Front as the medium-high tier units with the ocassional super-awesome units like Finnish snipers, Spanish veterans and Tiger combat groups.
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To be quite honest, I think the Ostheer, conceived as a German-centric faction, should be scrapped. I mean, what was the rationale behind making the Ostheer? That because you had the Soviets, you had to have the Germans?
We already had the Germans. PE and Wehrmacht. They are good enough at representing all aspects of the German armies, and... do we REALLY need a THIRD German faction?
The way I see it, Ostheer should either be scrapped, or be reengineered into a new faction that relied completely on foreign troops. Take basic German units like Stugs, PIVs and Grenadiers, and then slap in the allies the Germans had on the Eastern Front as the medium-high tier units with the ocassional super-awesome units like Finnish snipers, Spanish veterans and Tiger combat groups.
+1
Nation-specific armor (e.g. Turan-II) would be ok, but keep the troop names vague and generic (e.g. Waffen-Grenadiers*)to prevent my-nation-should-be-here arguments. Waffen-SS style Feldgrau uniforms without insignia should also do the trick. However, Gebirgsjägers should never be excluded from the OH. ;)
*the rank prefix "Waffen" instead of "SS" was commonly used for foreign volunteer units.
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To be quite honest, I think the Ostheer, conceived as a German-centric faction, should be scrapped. I mean, what was the rationale behind making the Ostheer? That because you had the Soviets, you had to have the Germans?
We already had the Germans. PE and Wehrmacht. They are good enough at representing all aspects of the German armies, and... do we REALLY need a THIRD German faction?
The way I see it, Ostheer should either be scrapped, or be reengineered into a new faction that relied completely on foreign troops. Take basic German units like Stugs, PIVs and Grenadiers, and then slap in the allies the Germans had on the Eastern Front as the medium-high tier units with the ocassional super-awesome units like Finnish snipers, Spanish veterans and Tiger combat groups.
So you still want spain?
This has been discussed serveral times. And we came to the conclusion that it isnt possible. The Ostheer wont support foreign troops, the foreign troops - will, if so - support the Ostheer just as it was irl.
And also, the Ostheer wasnt compareable to the other german "faction" they had other equipment other tank/guns because they simply had other enemies.
Saying, there is Easily enough to make up anther faction.
This has been discussed serveral times.. so lets end it up here.
Regards,
-V-
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...It was only a matter of time before some nationalist makes another ruckus anyway. ::)
Back to topic, the OH still has lots of tanks to choose from, not just German Panzers but also captured booty (Beutepanzers)---like the infamous Hotchkiss---which were used on the Ostfront. My personal choice for a well-balanced medium tank for the OH would be the Pz.Kpfw. P40 737(i), which had the armor of a later-model Pz.Kpfw. III, but with a 75mm gun. Production was taken over and was subsequently continued under the supervision of the Wehrmacht. Hence, some field-modified and up-armored versions were found to be used by the Germans in the East. http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ctpic2.htm (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ctpic2.htm)
Another suggestion would be the Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf. N 8)
they would prolly work pretty well mid-game with fast & light Jäger vehicles which could be obtained sometime after the Russians get the T-70 (mid: to counter Soviet light armor; late: harassment). A good example of a light Jäger would be the 3.7cm PaK 35/36 auf Krupp Protze http://www.achtungpanzer.com/37cm-pak-3536-auf-krupp-protze.htm (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/37cm-pak-3536-auf-krupp-protze.htm) or the 5cm PaK38(Sf) auf Zugkraftwagen 1t http://www.achtungpanzer.com/5cm-pak38sf-auf-zugkraftwagen-1t.htm (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/5cm-pak38sf-auf-zugkraftwagen-1t.htm)
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Take that back. Its just dishonorable.
I been around here for a very long time, and i always supported the idea of having foreign troops supporting the Ostheer.
I even always thought right the same way you do, just read futher posts of me or my concept (reward units).
Dont throw words in like that, thats not okay. I will always try to stay neutral, so no problem about that here. Maybe i said it a bit hard so i gonna forget about that here.. :)
Regards,
-V-
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Take that back. Its just dishonorable.
All right. Maybe I WAS a bit harsh. I was just worried that things would get off-topic, some people would start arguing then a dev would drop by and lock this interesting thread :(...which would be a shame, since good flexible medium tanks are exactly what the OH needs the most ;)
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I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.
We want the Panzer III's ! We Want the Stug III's , we want Variety!
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STAYING ON TOPIC
With the panzer III I can see put in the ostheer in three ways.
*an early tank to deal with armoured cars, stuarts and soviet light tanks. In this form it would have its 50mm cannon.
*giving it the short barrelled 75mm cannon to be pretty much just like the PE panzer IV.
*have the panzer III as a flamethrower tank.
remember that the largest anti tank gun they but on the panzer III was a 50mm gun and so even that couldn't deal well with the t34 or sherman so I find it unlikely to be a late game main tank. And although they did put a 75mm gun on the panzer III it was the short barrelled one to provide infantry support. In the end we will probably either see the panzer IV, or panthers or some slew of tank destroyers to deal with late game armour. Also I am somewhat keen on seeing the stug III in the ostheer it would hardly look any different from the Stug IV so there wouldn't be much variation there.
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Your right Werwolf ;)
Versedhorison your also absolutly right about the great usage of the Panzer III. Maybe i should quote the Panzer III of my concept which got all variation included:
- Panzer III (i wont name any "Ausführungen" because the orignial game also didnt do that)
The cheap Panzer III rolls out of the Hall of GermanSteel
with the universal 50mm short barrelled canon. But to give
this tank its multi-tasking ability you can upgrade it with
several things:
-> the universal "Seitenschürzen" upgrade
-> the upgrade to a short barred 75mm canon,
which shoots HE shells!
This upgrade is fine for a tank based gamer,
coming out of the Panzer Warfare Kommando and gets
killed by enemy infantry.
-> the upgrade to a longbarreled 50mm canon, which
shoots AP shells!
this upgrade is perfect for a infantry based gamer,
coming out of the Infantry support Kommando, which
needs anti-tank support now.
-> if selected the right doctrine, also a flamethrower upgrade is possible (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4337/122rg.png) [size=9]![/size]
My opinion about the Stug III is also similar - without any usefull idea we dont need it in the ostheer because its just another Stug.
-V-
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I like those Ideas giving it upgrades should give it some use in the later game stages when light armour generally disappears.
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IMO, for Panzer or Panther to be available in Ostheer is not avoidable as they are the regular tank for the German in World War 2...
However, we always have ways to add them in unique way, for example through doctrine...
Remove them completely may make Ostheer look like not a force of German...
Just my opinion though...
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And although they did put a 75mm gun on the panzer III it was the short barrelled one to provide infantry support. In the end we will probably either see the panzer IV, or panthers or some slew of tank destroyers to deal with late game armour.
Actually, the "Stummel" short-barrelled 75mm was also designed to fire HEAT rounds when needed. Relic neutered it for the sake of "balance", thus confining it only to the inf-support role. *sigh*. :(
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Also I am somewhat keen on seeing the stug III in the ostheer it would hardly look any different from the Stug IV so there wouldn't be much variation there.
There can be a global gun upgrade. Short barreled stugIII sounds better than PzIIIN - a c,opy of PE PzIV.
This gun upgrade could unlock a Tier with JagdpanzerIV(or Nashorn) and buildable Tiger I.
With the panzer III I can see put in the ostheer in three ways.
*an early tank to deal with armoured cars, stuarts and soviet light tanks. In this form it would have its 50mm cannon.
*giving it the short barrelled 75mm cannon to be pretty much just like the PE panzer IV.
*have the panzer III as a flamethrower tank.
Ostheer should have PzIIIL.
Its a version with the best AT cannon that PzIII ever had.
A doctrinal flamethrower tank call-in or upgrade (100ammo) would be great too.
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A doctrinal flamethrower tank call-in or upgrade (100ammo) would be great too.
+1
I'd go for the Flammpanzer-III upgrade ;D
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Also I am somewhat keen on seeing the stug III in the ostheer it would hardly look any different from the Stug IV so there wouldn't be much variation there.
There can be a global gun upgrade. Short barreled stugIII sounds better than PzIIIN - a c,opy of PE PzIV.
This gun upgrade could unlock a Tier with JagdpanzerIV(or Nashorn) and buildable Tiger I.
With the panzer III I can see put in the ostheer in three ways.
*an early tank to deal with armoured cars, stuarts and soviet light tanks. In this form it would have its 50mm cannon.
*giving it the short barrelled 75mm cannon to be pretty much just like the PE panzer IV.
*have the panzer III as a flamethrower tank.
Ostheer should have PzIIIL.
Its a version with the best AT cannon that PzIII ever had.
A doctrinal flamethrower tank call-in or upgrade (100ammo) would be great too.
+1
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And although they did put a 75mm gun on the panzer III it was the short barrelled one to provide infantry support. In the end we will probably either see the panzer IV, or panthers or some slew of tank destroyers to deal with late game armour.
Actually, the "Stummel" short-barrelled 75mm was also designed to fire HEAT rounds when needed. Relic neutered it for the sake of "balance", thus confining it only to the inf-support role. *sigh*. :(
Although they did shoot HEAT rounds they still weren't that effective and weren't why the germans stopped building panzer III's in 1943 and stopped building tanks with short barreled guns.
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I want PzPpfW. III! ;D
@ the discussion about Ostheer or Foreign Army:
After thinking about it, I think it could really work to build a faction based nearly exclusively on non-German Axis states.
However, then the "Ostheer" should be implemented in the original Wehrmacht faction. This may sound like a violation of the Eastern Front's main goal, not changing the original gameplay or factions, BUT, it can be done via the reward-unit-system.
I've heard something about plans to add a sherman-jumbo and another unit as new rewards to the US-faction, so it should be possible with the Wehrmacht, too.
Reward Units should be:
- Ost-Grenadiers (replaces Grenadiers) - 5 soldiers with 4x Kar98k and 1x MP40 for the squadleader.
Abilities: "Throw grenade",
Upgrades: "MG34" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG34) (max 2) or "Gewehrgranate" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade)
(max 2)
- PzKpfW III Ausf. L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_3) (replaces Pz IV) - Medium tank, cheaper than Pz IV.
Vet-upgrades: "Turret-MG-gunner", "side-skirts" - leIG 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_leichtes_Infanteriegeschütz_18) (replaces Nebelwerfer) - 7.5cm gun to support infantry.
- PzJ Elefant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant) (replaces Königstiger) - Heavy tankdestroyer with outstanding long-range-attack-capability.
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Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction and a chance to get other stuff into the game eg. elefant, panzer III. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
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Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
the SdKfz. 251 should be a mainstay, IMO. Panthers and Bergepanthers (late- variant with dual MG42 instead of 20mm) wouldn't hurt either...
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Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction and a chance to get other stuff into the game eg. elefant, panzer III. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
You could do that with reward units, replacing the Puma with Panzer IIIs, the Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers with Elefants, etc...
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Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction and a chance to get other stuff into the game eg. elefant, panzer III. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
You could do that with reward units, replacing the Puma with Panzer IIIs, the Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers with Elefants, etc...
But do we WANT to? I am sure that most of us would like to see the Ostheer as a completely different faction than the Wehrmact.
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Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction and a chance to get other stuff into the game eg. elefant, panzer III. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
You could do that with reward units, replacing the Puma with Panzer IIIs, the Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers with Elefants, etc...
>Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction
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So,i think the Panzer III needs some recognition.I mean come on.It's a strong tank.Us guys use Panzer IV Infantry Support Tank(which is a lot weaker) ;)
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Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction and a chance to get other stuff into the game eg. elefant, panzer III. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see old stuff like Sd kfz 251 half track or the medium tanks in the whermacht and panzer elite.
You could do that with reward units, replacing the Puma with Panzer IIIs, the Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers with Elefants, etc...
>Main reason for the ostheer is for added gameplay from another faction
We already have the Wehrmacht and the Panzer Elite. I wonder if the new Ostheer, yet ANOTHER German-centric faction, is going to justify its existence when it finally comes out seeing how the first two factions already fulfill nearly every imaginable niche.
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well wherm is really def and counter, + superior teching
PE is raid-fanatism and weak cars +end Panther²
axis needs early panzer to fend human sov waves but of course lighter end-game
xp speed and carac will deliver diffrent gameplay
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axis needs early panzer to fend human sov waves but of course lighter end-game
Agreed. Since Ostheer should be the army most suited to fight the Ruskies, they should get adequate early armor to combat their Soviet counterparts.
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You want early panzer? I don´t see how that could go wrong balance-wise!
::)
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Well Saavedra, wild suggestion but why don't we use a Panzer 35(t) or Panzer 2 8).
Both have very thin armor so the British mortar+ Button would slaughter em, the American stickies would = death, and the Soviet tank hunters......well u get the point right?
Its very easy to balance since early-armor would be tier 2-2.5 (in this particular example) and by then most sane players would have all of the above regularly available. So yea not destroing balance if u think about it too much.
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Well Saavedra, wild suggestion but why don't we use a Panzer 35(t) or Panzer 2 8).
Both have very thin armor so the British mortar+ Button would slaughter em, the American stickies would = death, and the Soviet tank hunters......well u get the point right?
Do you want PzII with vehicle_22x (PE ketten, AC and halftrack) armor?
I guess a PzII could be a late Sdkfz222 but I want a quad halftrack.
(http://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/16051/6525-2WN.jpg)
Weak like a PE halftrack, Speed and firepower same as Wirblewind. Ostheer needs non doctrinal air defense (so sais the Devs).
PzII would be a great 2CP doctrinal call-in (vehicle_22x armor) or a 4CP glider call-in with (Sdkfz234 armor).
(http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/germany/panzer_2/image/panzer_2_l.jpg)
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Like the PzII call-in idea. That quad halftrack looks fun too. :)
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I like the anti aircraft half track I'd probably put that in as the ostheers anti aircraft if I was a dev. I don't really like the Idea of the Panzer II cause it will get killed by all other allied armour in the game plus its seems out of place in a 1944 game.
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Well Saavedra, wild suggestion but why don't we use a Panzer 35(t) or Panzer 2 8).
Both have very thin armor so the British mortar+ Button would slaughter em, the American stickies would = death, and the Soviet tank hunters......well u get the point right?
Only problem with that is the range. Most tanks have the range and speed to kite infantry quite easily. Good luck getting stickies off on an early-game tank which naturally, if light armored, will need to have something to compensate for that so it is still useful late-game, like more range, more power, or more speed.
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I really think the Ostheer should have PII or PIII included. Those where a major part of the initial tank force in 1941 and they are not included in the game so far.
Maybe, like already suggested, as a call-in weapon or a puma spare... but they fit more into the concept of a small tank, i guess.
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oh god not another 222 case :P
Personally I'd want to see the Pz III since it has good armor and a decent cannon.
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Rattle to the max!
Lol jk I know they werent made, no need to start yelling
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i suggested this:
Stug III
Armed with a stubby 75mm. Very good vs infantry, horrible vs tanks. If shaped charge technology is researched, it can fire a single HEAT round, which does a high amount of damage to enemy tanks . If lengthened barrels is researched, it gains a KWK 40 L48 gun, which dramatically boosts its AT firepower, but it loses its HEAT round ability
Panzer III
Medium tank of the ostheer. Initially armed with 50mm kwk 38 L43, good vs all targets but great vs none. Can be individually upgraded for 60 fuel to ausf L, which makes the gun more effective (KWK 39 L/60)against enemy tanks and improves the armor. Can use APCR rounds once individually upgraded, temporarily boosts AT performance further.
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Read my idea of incorporating pzkpfw II into game on unit suggestions.
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I want Panzer III's and II's.
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Perhaps the Panzer II and Panzer III and then an upgrade into the assault guns and such that their chassis were used for later in the war?
I like the idea of having them in the game, but I can agree with both sides of the argument of having them or excluding them.
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I agree that there should be diversity in the ostheer. Therefore I think that the incorporation of pzk IIs and pzk IIIs is neccessarry in keeping to the truest nature of Eastern Fronts. I also believe that the availalability of the jadgpanzer as an off map call in for one of the doctrins or make it buildable. I agree with many other of my fellow forum members that the ostheer shoud match in armor what the russians have as far as armor diversity as well as upgradeable versions much like what was seen on the battle fields of the Eastern Front. The Gemans made many different variants of the pzk IIs pzk IIs and pzk IVs. The game should allow these tanks to be built and upgraded with things like recovery vehicle, or up-gun them, or medic-ammo vehicles. Historicaly the Panther was seen during the second half of the Germans offensive on Russia, so it should be a late-game tank. I also STRONGLY believe that early versions of the Tiger should be built in the factories just as the Russians can build IS-2 tanks(its only fair guys).Building Tigers is what every german playing fan has dreamed of! In closing, I agree with the majority of forum members in saying that all of the successfull "panzerkampfwagen" should be utilized in some part of the game. They could be doctrine or permenantly buildable. (I am for diversity...it equals more fun)
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Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?
Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.
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Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?
Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.
+1
It was great when mechanics could recover a wreck, they just done it too quickly.
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The russian tank hall allows for 5 very usefull armord tanks to be produced, from light support to heavy. I think the ostheer should have a similar set up in thier tank factory. With the ability to upgrade the factory. Then Panzer II,III,IIII,and tigers can be produced in a very similar fasion but for a little more of the cost of course to negate the fact that panzers can be upgraded with armored skirts.
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How about having a couple of light tanks that could be upgraded with light AT weapons, and then getting heavy tanks for a slightly cheaper cost than normal Wehr, but after some expensive upgrades?
That way, Ostheer would have to rely on light AT and halftrack-mounted infantry at first, then go for heavy tanks like Panthers and Tigers later on. Think a mix of PE and Wehr, using open-topped HTs and Pumas.
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How about having a couple of light tanks that could be upgraded with light AT weapons, and then getting heavy tanks for a slightly cheaper cost than normal Wehr, but after some expensive upgrades?
Wehrmacht is allready very cheap (OP) in late game becouse of their upgrades (vet).
I think that Ostheer tanks should be early, undergunned at first (PzII, PzIII, Stubby StugIIIe) but expensive in late game so that the Ostheer late game wont look like a Soviet T-34/IS-2 tide and that Tigers wont be spammed.
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I think that a mix is what is needed. Make it tough for ostheer early, and then a strong late game through the use of tigers and inf.
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I think that a mix is what is needed. Make it tough for ostheer early, and then a strong late game through the use of tigers and inf.
As Ive said before thats wehrmacht youre talking about.
Ostheer should be strong (and expensive) in early game to stop US and Soviet overcapping.
Late game should be hard to them unless they gain vet (unit preservation) or outcap the oponent.
Only 1 on the field Tiger I should be available and the main late game Ostheer Panther-like "tank" should be JagdpanzerIV. Panther turret bunkers should be available to build to counter Soviet mass armor attacks. All Ostheer infantry exept foreign units should be expensive to reinforce.
No late game (1944) battle should be a piece of cake or the Ostheer.
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Well, the panzerIV is certainly my choice for a medium tank. I feel that in keeping with history the panzerIV was germany's most vastly used and produced tank. The idea i had was to use the jagdpanzerIV(not Hetzer version) and panzerIV as an interum armor tanks in mid game. Then as for late game, be able to produce panthers and Tigers in factory for high cost.
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I'd go for the Jagdpanzer IV/48 as well. The OH needs a cheap, dedicated tank destroyer which would be markedly different from the StuG series in armor protection and performance. Also, the Wespe would be ideal as self-propelled doctrine artillery IMO. Same goes with the Nashorn or Elefant as doctrine call-ins. However, heavy panzers such as the Panther and Tiger I should be retained for obvious symbolic and practical reasons. ;)
While I've come to the conclusion that the OH needs to be differentiated from the WH and PE (hence, upgradeable Pz. IIIs or Beutepanzer equivalents should be used in lieu of Pz. IVs), I've also noticed that the "No-Recrew" bug would discourage the use of crewed units such as HMGs, PaKs and Nebelwerfers/Granatewerfers. Therefore, a possible solution could come in the form of self-propelled units. Some ideas:
1.) Schwere Wermachtschlepper "sWS" mit MG34 - T1. replaces heavy MG team; upgradeable with either 3.7 cm FlaK 43 (AP/AM/AA) or 15 cm Panzerwerfer (rocket artillery/fire-support).
2.) 3.7cm PaK 35/36 auf Krupp Protze - T1-T2. Light AM/AT.
3.) Schwere Panzerspähwagen (7.5cm PaK 40) Sd.Kfz.234/4 (8-Rad) - T2-T3. Heavy AM/AT.
4.) PzKpfw. II Ausf. L "Luchs" - T2. Recon/AP/AM.
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The panther is heavy tank, not medium.
For german its medium , for allies its heavy ^^
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The panther is heavy tank, not medium.
For german its medium , for allies its heavy ^^
Allies won the war so its heavy.
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I prefer stug/assault gun w/heavy tanks (tiger out of factory)
with strong sturdy light vehicles
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OP!!
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Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?
Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.
+1
It was great when mechanics could recover a wreck, they just done it too quickly.
+1
If Ostheer would have a bergetiger like vehicle, nobody will use PE :(, so... I'm against it :P.
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- sdkfz. 231 as an early recon vehicle
-> and as reward unit the panzer II Ausf. F "Luchs"
that fits so great!!
Sdkfz. 231: fast, weak armor
Luchs: Slower, but better armor
Armament would be the same the 2-cm-KwK
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whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks
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whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks
That was a thing most Early-war panzers couldn't do. So, we make the PzIII/IV Avainable Earlier than the T-34 [Maybe T2 with a Fuel-Muntion upgrade to make them?] Late game won't be a problem, Panthers, Tigers, Elefant will stand up to the T-34/85, until they get IS'2.
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whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks
That was a thing most Early-war panzers couldn't do. So, we make the PzIII/IV Avainable Earlier than the T-34 [Maybe T2 with a Fuel-Muntion upgrade to make them?] Late game won't be a problem, Panthers, Tigers, Elefant will stand up to the T-34/85, until they get IS'2.
bingo, i mean panzer IV does really well early to middle game and deal with inf well too but with the t34 upgrade it becomes a joke, with the wehrmact anyway, the panzer with the pe is a joke againt any tank
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bingo, i mean panzer IV does really well early to middle game and deal with inf well too but with the t34 upgrade it becomes a joke, with the wehrmact anyway, the panzer with the pe is a joke againt any tank
That is due to the fact that the Panzer IV of the PE is the anti infantry version. It is therefore more than logical that it fails against tanks.
Cheers
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C'mon, I really hate to see another Panzer IV and Panther again! Its like having a different faction with the same combat docterine. Panzer III should be a teir 2.5 to tier 3.5 medium tank, it should be a little more expensive than StugIII, but fullfill the role of a mainstay tank, I know that despite its undergunned and underarmored, it was crewed by experience veterans who see combat as early as 1939, and it should have some unique and nasty ability to surprise the allies.
Panzer III can have a ability to use 80-90 munition of-Aim the turrent & tracks, give it the ability to stunt a tank(only tank) for a few seconds, either to bring it down or retreat, hitting a vehicle will do the same but waste the valueble munition. And the round do the same damage or slightly more powerful.
Or the Panzer III uses 50-60 munition for HEAT round, that can punch through armor of heavy tank, which may scare ally player to retreat their precious tank and thought, what the hell?!? But this meant that Panzer III WILL GO UP THE TIER and have face regular T-34 & Shermans. But having skills and ability to either retreat, ambush and breakthrough the frontline.
The Panzer III can fullfill what most tank lacks, surprise and shock tank, which can be a dangerous tank when combine with Werhmacht and Panzer Elite but a medicore tank which require more micromangement if use own its own. It maybe very much a game breaking tank if combine well with other faction, but its a concept, so forgive me to give a tank with such ability cause I hate to see a wonderful machine bacome a joke and laugh by the Yankees, TommieS & Ruskeis.
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I think everybody agrees that the Panzer III shpuld included as the MBT of the Ostheer and kinda like the concept of Panzerwilly, give the the Panzer III some cool abilities and available earlier than the T-34.
The balance issue could fixed by including an buildable Uber Tank Destroyer and that way a Tank Destroyer plus Panzer III could easily overpower more advanced tanks such as the sherman and the T-34
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if Panzer III as a MBT then with Nashorn or something similar... :)
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if Panzer III as a MBT then with Nashorn or something similar... :)
+1. since panzer III has pretty much been confirmed but I reckon panthers or something simmilar should be in ostheer to deal with late game tanks.
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panthers or something simmilar should be in ostheer to deal with late game tanks.
To be honest Im done with panthers for a while, we have plenty of them in both PE and Wehr. To deal with the IS-2 and Up-gunned T-34 I sugest ,as many people have already said, include the Nashorn (or similar Tank destroyer) and some sort of call in, like the one of the PE.
How about a Panzer IV Battlegroup Call In? You call in a group of three fully upgraded Panzer IV with schurzen, MG gunner and sorts.
I think the trick is try not to include the units that already have the Wehr and the PE, or least no make them buildable, that way the Ostheer becomes a more unique army and just a rip off of the other axis armies
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why not the Panzer IV Ausf G ?
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Why a Pz IV Ausf. G ???
The problem with the main battle tanks is that
PE and WE had already germanys best main battle tanks
at their unit pool.
Panzer III is the last tank left for this role and so i think
we should try to find a place for this medium tank.
And all in all i think Panzer III would fit perfect -
it could fight T-70 and T-90 and in groups the T-34 tanks.
The problem are the heavy tanks of the red army and for this job u need something heavier then Pz III.
But what for a tank?
Panther? Tiger? Nashorn?
All in all those 3 tanks would have a qualification to be part of the Ostheer because they were developed out of the impressions of the eastern front. They were designed to stop and destroy red tanks and they were symbols for the battle of the eastern front ( try to image a battle of Kursk WITHOUT Tiger or Panther!!! Impossible! ).
So...I think there is no chance to create a Ostheer with total new stuff. Think we will see some old tanks back in action ;) But this isnt no problem out of my view.
When Ostheer game mechanic will be special and new anyone will cry when he saw one or two old friends back in action ;) Right?
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i think the best way is to have new buildable units and the old one (panthers, tigers, panzer IV) call in as battlegroups
also some group zeal for especially Panzer III could be so that more PIII then they are better and can more easily deal with russian tanks
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All in all those 3 tanks would have a qualification to be part of the Ostheer because they were developed out of the impressions of the eastern front. They were designed to stop and destroy red tanks and they were symbols for the battle of the eastern front ( try to image a battle of Kursk WITHOUT Tiger or Panther!!! Impossible! ).
So...I think there is no chance to create a Ostheer with total new stuff. Think we will see some old tanks back in action ;) But this isnt no problem out of my view.
When Ostheer game mechanic will be special and new anyone will cry when he saw one or two old friends back in action ;) Right?
True, but historical accuracy isnt a top matter when it comes to developing the actual faction. Besides the alternatives are either making battlegroups or doctrinal units out of these tanks, because we planety of them in the existing axis factions or not use them at all (which is impossible).
The top matter is to fill the gap of the Ostheer unit pool and make it as unique as possible which it is ,in my thoughts, as important as creating an unique game mechanic for the OH. PE and WH share units, yes, but they dont share buildable units and thats whats make them unique, I think it must be attempted to do the same for the Ostheer ;)
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hmm what units share PE and Wehr? ??? right now i can remember only panther tank
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i think the best way is to have new buildable units and the old one (panthers, tigers, panzer IV) call in as battlegroups
also some group zeal for especially Panzer III could be so that more PIII then they are better and can more easily deal with russian tanks
Going back to this, the group zeal might be quite a good idea. It could represent the Blitzkrieg tactics as well as the excellent radio communication the Panzer groups enjoyed. In gameplay, it would also be interesting to see the weakest MBT of the factions grouping up to defeat more advanced tanks.
I would think the Panzer III would be the MBT for sure in the Ostheer. The advanced tank would probably be in the form of the panther, since these were so numerous on the EF. It makes me wonder where a Tiger would even fit into the faction. Perhaps the Ostheer may have a 5th tier building, which creates the equivalent of vet 3 Wehrmacht tanks?
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Going back to this, the group zeal might be quite a good idea. It could represent the Blitzkrieg tactics as well as the excellent radio communication the Panzer groups enjoyed. In gameplay, it would also be interesting to see the weakest MBT of the factions grouping up to defeat more advanced tanks.
yes that's what i mean... :)
I would think the Panzer III would be the MBT for sure in the Ostheer. The advanced tank would probably be in the form of the panther, since these were so numerous on the EF. It makes me wonder where a Tiger would even fit into the faction. Perhaps the Ostheer may have a 5th tier building, which creates the equivalent of vet 3 Wehrmacht tanks?
i think its not a problem to have higher number of tanks, even Wehrmacht got highest number of tanks available so panthers, tigers and more can easily fit into ostheer
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hmm what units share PE and Wehr? ??? right now i can remember only panther tank
ahem... Goliath :P
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the panther is not heavy tank!!!it is medium
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to me its a heavy tank... :)
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Yea its heavy, dont you hear them say "Panther Heavy Panzer coming in" Or something like that.
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In reality, the panther was classed as a medium tank that happened to be as good as the heavy tanks of other nations.
Ingame it functions as a heavy tank, beating other tanks in field battles and creating breakthroughs.
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Got it ;)
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maybe you could give a call-in in each doctrine.... eg.with first doctrine the call in is a panzer IV or two...with the second doctrine you get to call in a panther...and with the third being the heaviest doctrine you get a tiger call in
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Then why would you get the other 2 doctrines?
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Maybe because everything else is better...
That's not a great idea though tbh.
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on wikipedia.org the Panther is medium tank http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank)
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OK we get it!
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on wikipedia.org the Panther is medium tank http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank)
yes it was classified as a medium tank but Panthers specifications fit into heavy tank role rather then medium...
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Even the Germans didn't know its true power!
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Keep on-topic comrades ;D!
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you woul choose the other doctrines because you dont choose doctrines depending on the tank but depending on your game style and map and stuff..you are just given a tank in each doctrine so as not to be unable to fight heavier enemies... so the tiger would go to the tank doctrine... this is a kind of could way to historically make the game because the battles werent always full of tigers and panthers and IVs
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Keep on-topic comrades ;D!
We are, we'll talking about a obsteer medium tank.
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Not that obstheer again...
Beware the Panzerkampfwawgon VIII Watermelon.
"Ve vill make a salad of zose communist sweine!"
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The problem are the heavy tanks of the red army and for this job u need something heavier then Pz III.
But what for a tank?
Panther? Tiger? Nashorn?
All in all those 3 tanks would have a qualification to be part of the Ostheer because they were developed out of the impressions of the eastern front. They were designed to stop and destroy red tanks and they were symbols for the battle of the eastern front ( try to image a battle of Kursk WITHOUT Tiger or Panther!!! Impossible! ).
I know that its impossible to not include heavy tank or tank destroyer. But Panzer III was the most numerous tank during that battle despite having both the Tiger and the Panther. The Panzer III in game should use as tank assault vehicle, have surprising ability but more dedicated to engage tanks and vehicles. Its accuracy and machine gun will make it potent enough to engage infantry, but it could cot achive success of M4 Sherman or the Panzer IV Ausf G as its gun lack the calibre to have high explosive. This make it more vunerble to 50mm AT gun, which the Allies have plenty of it. Panzer III can be a nasty weapon against tanks but against the Zis and US At gun or AT infantry, it will be a whole lot less potent.
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I don't think anyone wants to see the Panzer III used as a mid-late game MBT. Early game to counter soviet blob would be wonderful, even mid to late game it could fill that role. I still build Pumas to deal with infantry late game even though they can be defeated by most any tank. Its all about location, diversity of units and micromanagement of units.
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i don't see any problem of using Panzer III in late game with co operation with Nashorn for example can be fine, high number of fast PIII flank heavier tanks and Nashorn could deal with it at longer range, with some cool abilities PIII will be good thing :)
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I am kinda tired of seeing the Panzer 4 being the medium tank of the German military in CoH. Why not use the Panzer 3? It could begin the game with the 37mm cannon, with an upgrade to incorporate the 50mm and the 75mm cannon at the cost of speed and mobility. Also the armor would upgrade as it were. Also, the Panzer 3 offers a unique gameplay idea, focus on speed while sacrificing power, or go for power and lose mobility.
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Perhaps (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Elburro/Loomis/shizzle/pnziii2.jpg) some of u had seen the Was ist das-Thread? (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=4232.0) :-X
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I'm interested with the Tiger tank. In CoHO there can be two Tigers on the field, it awesome. But can anyone tell me, what's the difference? I mean the stats of the Tiger in CoHO and vCoH. Except the funny overdrive and Defensive manuvers. What will be the Tiger's role in the EF?
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What will be the Tiger's role in the EF?
To shoot at everything that enemy has with its gun and not get killed. :D
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Perhaps (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Elburro/Loomis/shizzle/pnziii2.jpg) some of u had seen the Was ist das-Thread? (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=4232.0) :-X
OMG, I love you. So Panzer III nad II really can relived its history in game once again. Wow, I never thought that our dream really came true. The DeV is so liberal to make the Panzer II, this is god send. A MOD that take our opinion so seriously! I will and forever love Eastern Front mod! Thank you for making our dream come ture.
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Your dreams have been set very low :-\
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Your dreams have been set very low :-\
Yeah, I guess you are right :P I'm not that kind of ambitious person cause I am not part of the mod developer. I am too happy to actually see the unit I suggested is become a possible reality in the game. I'm no war expert or game pro, and I just wanted a good game mod that I can enjoy for a long time. I know ostheer in eastern front mod will go beyond this, but for now, I can sleep well knowing that my favorite german engineered tank will be an in game. :D For me, I am satisfy, considered myself living in a small country with small CoH community. Not much RTS games flow into this country, and Panzer III never existed in my game collection. But I always watch history channel and documentary of Achtung Panzer and the Panzer III was always my inspiration in my animation and concept art development.
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@PanzerWilly
Don't take Seeme' words seriously by now :P. He just miss his coffee :).
To see the panzer ii & iii in EF will be great :P!!!
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I agree, the panzerII and panzerIII's have always needed to be in the game somewhere
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Pz II will be similiar to the 234 , and Pz III to the sherman.
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@PanzerWilly
Don't take Seeme' words seriously by now :P. He just miss his coffee :).
And he just talks to hear himself talk "Mr. Spam" ;)
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*Punchs Griptonik on the face*
I hate this Mr.Spam title, I want to get rid of it.
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But it fits you so well.
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Your fit well with those cross and bones when am done with you.
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i also love the panzer 3 in the ostheer
seeme ,you are mr.spam
you say useless stuff in every topic
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Not all the time, I try to stay on topic. And I hate being called Mr.Spam.
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Your fit well with those cross and bones when am done with you.
Post Merge: August 25, 2010, 03:43:49 AM
That was a good game seeme!! You guys played well, but the might of german steel toulk you and your buddy. Oh and when you quit out right before we won, the game locked up, and said we had been kicked out?... wierd. How do you think it would have went if those pIV were all pIII ? The medium tank is very important to the germans, it just makes everything work. Notice that my bro was struggling under the weight of your inf blobs. He had no medium tank because he was germ-elite therefore he was forced to wait on panthers in late game. The PE mkIV isnt that good against tank hunters, so he relied on me for medium tank support.
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Yea, my tank hunter squads would of owned better if I didnt forget to upgrade them ;D. We did lots of mistakes on our side.
In late game you should always have a medium tank, if the Germans only spam panthers we would of won. Also some volks and MP44s grienderis would of helped.
And My buddy was Canielwizard.
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Well as it was said in one concept Ostheer should be an elite army countering masses of soviets so even if want to see new tanks a panther is a must. A panzer III is a good tank to fight those T-70 and T-90. Some version of stug should be able to fend of T-34 and then panthers come in. A buildable version of a Tiger is a good option to counter IS-2. The uniquness of Ostheer sholud be its whole concept not the vehicles.
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Well as it was said in one concept Ostheer should be an elite army countering masses of soviets so even if want to see new tanks a panther is a must. A panzer III is a good tank to fight those T-70 and T-90. Some version of stug should be able to fend of T-34 and then panthers come in. A buildable version of a Tiger is a good option to counter IS-2. The uniquness of Ostheer sholud be its whole concept not the vehicles.
Post Merge: August 25, 2010, 11:55:05 PM
I agree. the concept as a whole is very important to a faction. The british cromwell is a fine example of a factions need for a medium tank. When an early cromwell comes out at just the right time it can be devistating in the hands of an experianced player and can turn the tide of an mid-game. A good player can make use of a medium tank in many different ways, no matter what faction they are using.
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Well as it was said in one concept Ostheer should be an elite army countering masses of soviets so even if want to see new tanks a panther is a must. A panzer III is a good tank to fight those T-70 and T-90. Some version of stug should be able to fend of T-34 and then panthers come in. A buildable version of a Tiger is a good option to counter IS-2. The uniquness of Ostheer sholud be its whole concept not the vehicles.
Post Merge: August 25, 2010, 11:55:05 PM
I agree. the concept as a whole is very important to a faction. The british cromwell is a fine example of a factions need for a medium tank. When an early cromwell comes out at just the right time it can be devistating in the hands of an experianced player and can turn the tide of an mid-game. A good player can make use of a medium tank in many different ways, no matter what faction they are using.
I think PzIII should have an upgunned Hothkiss/Puma gun on a PzIV chassie.
Ostheer should have a Treadbreaker ability or Stickies so that this early tank could be usefull in fighting SU-85 but it should loose a 1v1 to a Cromwell tank or to 2 well microed Staghounds.
It should be devastating with a StugIII and I hope that there will be an option to choose between teching up to a StugIII or a PzIII. Stug III should be better vs UK/US, PzIII vs Soviet light tanks. PzIII should be a reason why Soviets should get a heavy tank upgrade first, instead of going light armor like they do vs Wehrmacht and PE.
A quick T-34 should be a problem to Ostheer just like a quick Stuart is to PE.
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Well the stug should form the back bone of Ostheer's panzer forces. I think that one will counter infantry and in some cases anti-tank cannons and have a short canon. The other should have a long cannon to destroy tanks. I also think that the idea to link infantry to tanks the way british officers can be link is very good. It can improve the cooperation beetwen infantry and tanks.
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Panzer II and Panzer III are obvious
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Dont take out the Panther!!! That tank is a BEAST!!!
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Dont take out the Panther!!! That tank is a BEAST!!!
Do take out the Panther!!! That tank is a BEAST!!!
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Dont take out the Panther!!! That tank is a BEAST!!!
Do take out the Panther!!! That tank is a BEAST!!!
Hahaha
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Well, I think the Panther could perhaps be part of the Ostheer, however, it should be part of a doctrine, since WH can built it, for PE it's a call-in after upgrading all other buildings and for OH it should be a doctrine-ability.
Again, I'm pretty sure Pz III will be OH's MBT. It's shown as Ausf. J (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Elburro/Loomis/shizzle/pnziii2.jpg) with the long 5cm KwK and sideskirts, this tank can probably even deal with early T34.
We also see an Infantry-support-tank, the Ausf. N (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Elburro/Loomis/Things/123123123123123123123.jpg), 7.5cm short cannon, same as the "Stubby" Panzer IV from PE.
Therefore I can't really see the need a StuG III, taking into account, that the AI-role (earyl version with short cannon) is already fulfilled by the Pz III Ausf. N and shouldn't be more powerfull than WH StuG IV. Therefore it can only be usefull as (cheap) early-mid "tankdestroyer" to support infantry, a role which is in my opinion similiar to Pz III Ausf. J.
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Well, in my opinion it would be a mistake to make the pzIII the main battle tank of the ostheer without stugIII support. The pzIII with its long barreled 50mm L/60 is far too inadiquate to take on a T-34 alone, or in pairs. The T34 was designed to take on and destroy pzII,pzIII, and pzIVs with ease!! Even the pzIV with its 75mm L/43 was hard pressed to take on a T34. In EF i have spent many,many hours testing the pzIV against all armor in the game and i can tell you this... A fully upgraded pzIV will lose against a regular T34 almost every time!! The german command also saw this problem during the war with russia and decided to have stugIII as tank destroyer to support the pzIII and pzIV in the anti-tank role. (They probly would have used tigers and panthers, but they couldnt produce near as many of them as stugs). The stugIII with a 75mm L/48 was a huge succes in combating russian tanks of all types. One of the most succesful stgIII aces was Hauptmann Peter Franz, also a Knights Cross holder and the commander of Stug.Abt. "Grossdeutschland". He destroyed some 43 Soviet T-34/76 tanks during the Battle for Borissovka on March 14th of 1943. The stugIII bridged the armored support gap between pzIII and panther for the german armored fighting force intill the end of the war. I personaly believe that the stugIII should be considered for the role of tank destroyer for the ostheer. I realize that it is a tank destroyer, but if you do the reserch you will find that the stugIII accounted for a large portion of all destroyed russian armor pieces in the war, and was seen in moscow and stalingrad! Seriously guys do the reserch, its fun to learn the truth !!!
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Thats a very compelling argument.
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*Punchs Griptonik on the face*
I hate this Mr.Spam title, I want to get rid of it.
lol do you want a trade???
on topic as I've said before I think at least the panther and in some form the panzer 4 both need to be in the ostheer since if the ostheer is suppost to represent the war in the east then the two main tanks of the german army should be in the ostheer.
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Well, in my opinion it would be a mistake to make the pzIII the main battle tank of the ostheer without stugIII support. The pzIII with its long barreled 50mm L/60 is far too inadiquate to take on a T-34 alone, or in pairs. The T34 was designed to take on and destroy pzII,pzIII, and pzIVs with ease!! Even the pzIV with its 75mm L/43 was hard pressed to take on a T34. In EF i have spent many,many hours testing the pzIV against all armor in the game and i can tell you this... A fully upgraded pzIV will lose against a regular T34 almost every time!! The german command also saw this problem during the war with russia and decided to have stugIII as tank destroyer to support the pzIII and pzIV in the anti-tank role. (They probly would have used tigers and panthers, but they couldnt produce near as many of them as stugs). The stugIII with a 75mm L/48 was a huge succes in combating russian tanks of all types. One of the most succesful stgIII aces was Hauptmann Peter Franz, also a Knights Cross holder and the commander of Stug.Abt. "Grossdeutschland". He destroyed some 43 Soviet T-34/76 tanks during the Battle for Borissovka on March 14th of 1943. The stugIII bridged the armored support gap between pzIII and panther for the german armored fighting force intill the end of the war. I personaly believe that the stugIII should be considered for the role of tank destroyer for the ostheer. I realize that it is a tank destroyer, but if you do the reserch you will find that the stugIII accounted for a large portion of all destroyed russian armor pieces in the war, and was seen in moscow and stalingrad! Seriously guys do the reserch, its fun to learn the truth !!!
+1
In total agreement as most of us are on that point. Give this man a cigar!
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Out of historical view it is no problem to make the Panzer III the main battle tank of the Ostheer.
A lot of T-34 tanks were destroyed by Panzer III. Reason are e.g. the fact that T-34 crews are nealy blind inside their tank or the fact that the scope of the T-34 is "primitive" and so one.
BUT all in all i think there is no problem out of gameplay view, too!
Perhpas one PzIII shouldnt kill a T-34 but in groups i think this wont be any problem.
BUT the most important point out of my view is the fact that anyone had said that a PzIII should be the counterpart of the T-34. We will see what for weapons Ostheer will be able to use against the red steel ;)
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Of course, PzIII won't be able to go toe to toe with a T-34 head on, but this is CoH remember, so it can still give it a good beating, especially with its extra armour upgrade :P
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I think at first the when the ostheer comes out its gunna turn into giant tank battles.
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I think at first the when the ostheer comes out its gunna turn into giant tank battles.
Heh, thats what makes the Eastern Front.
...
Apart from Urban Combat.
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Well, I would hope then, that the balance between the fuel costs of the pzIII and the T34 would be studied and debated with utmost attention (as im sure it is). Of course guys, all would be forgiven if the ostheer could build Tigers in factories like those huge Is-2 are. Also, to be honest i am more happy to see pzII on the battle field! PzII is a german afv that i have been waiting on for years. It was used so much across europe that it deserves its place in the game.
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I can't impart my opinion at that time for what the Ostheer tanks should be, but one thing's for sure is that doctrinal units define a style of play, not the general standard of play. The standard of play is the how the army functions without doctrine units. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses? With this idea, we can see that America and Wehrmacht are considered well-rounded armies, whereas the the Panzer Elite is considered fast and mobile, and the British considered defensive.
With that in mind, you'll realize that doctrines allow players to alter their army's standard of play to a different style. Picking Airborne makes America a more mobile, offensive army. Picking Royal Commandos makes the British less defensive and more mobile because of their instant ability to drop three different types of gliders. Picking Scorched Earth makes the Panzer Elite and even deadlier strike force because now they have the ability to use their speed with a deceptive offensive nature (booby-trapping). Do you guys see where I'm going with this?
We need to develop the Ostheer as an army first, we need to define their standard of play first. When that's done, we'll develop three different ways (doctrines) to change that standard to represent three different unique styles of play.
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My guess is that is exactly what they're going to do. I'm curious as to what what the doctrines are going to be. I'm hoping that its not going to be the basic three "armor, mobility, defense". In their capable hands though I'm sure it will be cool one way or the other.
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The vCoH doctrines are quite regimented, so you go Infantry, don't expect Armour call ins. If you go Armour, don't expect Infantry call ins. If you go Scorched Earth, don't expect to be making daisy chains. If you go Terror, don't expect muffins... that sort of thing.
Obviously the Ostheer is wip so stuff is subject to change, but the doctrines will mix things up more, it's not black and white 'Infantry, Air, Armour, Defensive, etc'.
/off topic
Back on track :P
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Nice to hear, Burro! :)
Back to the MTB-discussion:
When I said that StuG III shouldn't be part of the Ostheer, I took into account, that the StuG IV is already part of the WH.
In the WH-faction, it's neither a really powerfull tankdestroyer nore a great MTB.
Therefore, it would be very, very stupid and disappointing to see a StuG III, which is more powerfull than its successor.
Following this idea, the StuG III for OH would be nearly the same as the StuG IV. (Otherwise, it would not make any sence at all.)
Now, I thought that a fully upgraded PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (that's the one we saw on the WIP-screens), will fit exactly into the role vCoH gave to the StuG: Early tank-support which can be devastating in groups of 3 or more vehicles.
You see where I'm going? PzIII and StuGIII would fulfill the same role in OH, at least in CoH's terms.
However, I can still imagine seeing a Sturmgeschütz in the Ostheer. But not as buildable unit. It can be a doctrinal combined arms call-in, similiar to the soviet tankriders. The StuG was originally designed as an infantry-support-gun for assault purposes, thus it would make sence. Instead of infantry using the tank as transporter, the tank should be like an additional "armour" for the infantry-soldiers.
An ability, which enables the infantry to "lock upon" the StuG, like CW's Lt., that's what I thought about. Once the inf is "locked" to the tank, the StuG moves slower but functions like a massive wall to hold bullets and other dangers off the following soldiers.
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Back to the MTB-discussion:
When I said that StuG III shouldn't be part of the Ostheer, I took into account, that the StuG IV is already part of the WH.
In the WH-faction, it's neither a really powerfull tankdestroyer nore a great MTB.
Therefore, it would be very, very stupid and disappointing to see a StuG III, which is more powerfull than its successor.
Stug3 and Stug4 were not really much different in means of armour, firepower(depends on ausf) and speed. So you could basically use the same stats but give the stug3 some nice abilities like camo and let's say it uses better ammunition
there you got your tank destroyer without beeing unrealistic
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Historically the Pz3 came earlier than the StuG3.
You're assuming here than the Pz3 is an early Pz4, which it
isn't. The Pz3 has 50mm and the StuG3 has 75mm.
Fully completed Pz3 were even recalled from combat to
be converted to StuG3's. Aye. Give it better ammo, and
camouflage. Make it an upgrade to the Pz3, and problem
solved. Perhaps for 100 ammo?
If Pz3 comes earlier, it can't very well be Panther Strenght,
now, can it?
Who is with me on this idea?
The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion helps the Pz3 not
becoming overly obsolete as technology evolves onwards.
Post Merge: September 08, 2010, 03:37:40 PM
Shermans convert from 75mm to 76mm...
Why should Pz3 50mm to Stu3 75mm be an idiotic
upgrade?
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I agree Loupblanc , the StuG IV was a result of the Germans losing ground in the war, adding the Stug III as an upgrade to the PzIII seems good, maybe from the HQ as a global upgrade.
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In my opinion, a PzIII->StuGIII-upgrade makes no sense.
The Sturmgeschütz was original designed to give the fast advancing troops artillery-support. So they put a 75mm cannon on the chassis of a PzIII. Because artillery don't need a turret, the StuG hadn't one, thus was cheaper to produce than PzIII.
However, later in the war, the StuG proved itself also as very usefull tankdestroyer, because of its flat design. It could also carry the long 75mm KwK, again due to the fact it hadn't a turret.
Of course some PzIII were converted to a StuG, but most of them were just build as one and came out-of-factory as an assault gun.
Also, it should be still possible to build PzKpfW. III in late-game, a thing which will be impossible when globaly upgraded. A single upgrade for every produced Panzer would be dumb, since it's not a simple cannon-change as with the Sherman, but a complex re-design.
So, after all the best would be to have PzII Ausf. L as early tank and late-game recon vehicle (as shown in the teasers), PzIII (Ausf. J) as MBT (as shown in the teasers), which is weaker than T34 but has either camouflage-ability like the PaK38 with bonus for the first shot or some kind of tank-zeal.
Upgrades are Panzerschürzen and upgrade to Ausf. N (as shown in the teasers), which adds the short 7.5cm Stubbygun, gains better AI-capability and loses the armour-penetration.
Additionally, a tankdestroyer, perhaps Marder II or Nashorn.
Depending on the doctrine you choose, you'll gain access to on out of three Panzer-call-in-abilities, either Panther, Elefant (already seen a sreen of it) or a StuGIII with infantry (+ ability to "lock behind the tank").
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It makes no sense to "upgrade" the panzer III to Stug III. Should be vice versa.
Why not replace the Panzer III with the Panzer IV as an doctrinal ability? Could be included in the tank doctrine where the elephant is.
Panzer IV would be produced out of factory as a Ausf. H (model) with 50 Mun. cost for upgrading with sideskirts (raises HP).
Has the ability to use the "Panzergranate 40" for 20 sec.
to deal with soviet tanks better. The ability costs 50 mun also.
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It's in reply to Aouch which says that StuG3 isn't needed,
because Pz3 fills that role. Same way Pz5 and Stug4 aren't
needed, because Pz4 fills that role, hm?
Well, StuG were #1 killer of T34's I believe, and the
StuG3 is the natural (and successful) evolution of the
Pz3, as war wore on. Ok, fine. You're right in that not
all Pz3 should just insta-pop as StuG3. I know no more
were built at that point (Native Pz3). How about this :
Unlock which makes all new Pz3 come out as StuG3
(No new Pz3 are buildable), and can convert existing
Pz3 to StuG3 for, say, 75 munitions?)(50?)
That way, you get a fast, early Pz3 for a chance for
a quick knockout win, and if it fails, switch 'em to
StuG3 for defensive warfare?
Give them camouflage and first strike. Similar to Hetzer.
I like the idea of StuG3 being used as an infantry wall.
Actually, I think everyone should be capable of doing that :p
But would fit very nice with OstHeer, especially.
Make it an unlock for all ostheer tanks to be capable
of that? And make infantry associated with said tank
to be immune from MG suppresion? (From a direction?.
Can that be done?)
--
Killer : It makes no sense to upgrade the Pz3 50mm to
a StuG3 ? You're right. We should be able to upgrade
Pz4 to Puma :) Yup. StuG3 is a lot more effective
against Soviets than Pz3. Better armor, 50% larger gun.
Reloads faster, etc.
StuG3 had a very large place in the war and in the kill
ratio. Plus, it's where all the Pz3 went. If you go Pz4/Pz5,
why not go Wehr?
- I don't think people want to lose their Elefant in exchange
for a 'Put wehr unit in Ostheer faction' :)
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@Loupblanc
Yeah but this solution allows you to have the Panzer IV in the ostheer too. The PIV was the main battle tank at the eastern front, not Panther or tiger.
I didn´t said to disclaim elephant for the panzerIV :o
the replacement for PIII should be in the same doctrine!
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When I said that a StuG III isn't needed, I meant it isn't needed as the MBT of the Ostheer.
I want it, too. But as doctrinal call-in.
Also, I ehm, would hate an upgrade like you all suggested. Why should the DEVs put so much work in a new model which is immediatly switched out in 10 minutes with an old acquaintance, the StuG?
Just because it was tank-killer #1, doesn't mean anything. I think engine-breakdowns where #1 mission-killers for Tigers etc.
And US for sure knocked more axis tanks by close-air-support than tankdestroyers. How often do you see that ingame? ;)
And most Pz3 didn't went to StuG3 but total destruction by 1943/'44.
EDIT: I hope they don't add the Pz4. Would be very very boring. It's already part of PE and WH. Plus it solves no real porpuse, the DEVs can make the Pz3 be nearly as effective on the battlefield as the Pz4.
Than again, Panthers are also part of those factions, but you can't make a Pz3 as strong as a Panther. ;)
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Right, when you can switch to a better tank, why using panzerIII anyway?
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Because it's cheaper and perhaps solves an other porpuse?
Anyway, look. Panzer 3 and StuG 3 should be two total different units, tacticwise.
Pz3 can be used as a large group of tanks hunting down by far better tanks thanks to it's availability in great numbers.
A classic tank.
StuG3 should be an infantry-support-gun. For assault. JUST like its name. And maybe as tankdestroyer.
But not in groups etc.
Not a classic tank, but an assault gun.
Also, why should anyone choose the Hotchkiss as reward unit instead of the Pz4? The German tank is "normally" better than the French, isn't it? Still there are people who tends to use it above the Stubby...
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Anyway, look. Panzer 3 and StuG 3 should be two total different units, tacticwise.
Pz3 can be used as a large group of tanks hunting down by far better tanks thanks to it's availability in great numbers.
A classic tank.
StuG3 should be an infantry-support-gun. For assault. JUST like its name. And maybe as tankdestroyer.
But not in groups etc.
Not a classic tank, but an assault gun.
couldn't say it better ;)
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- Ok, I agreed about the USA Sherman-style
turn all Pz3 into StuG3 conversion. Which is why I
proposed a munitions-based voluntary conversion.
Fine, Stug3 looks like Stug4, but so does Pz3 look like Pz4
a lot. I've read at lenght on the internet about the Pz3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III)
In the past few days.
Once upon a time...
Pz3 tank killer. Pz4 infantry support.
Then ... Roles reversed
Pz3 Infantry Support. Pz4 Tank killer.
(Which is where the N version comes in)
The StuG3 was a tank destroyer conversion.
By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.
The Panzer III chassis was the basis for the Sturmgeschütz III assault gun, one of the most successful self-propelled guns of the war, and the single most-produced German armored fighting vehicle design of World War II.
To meet the growing need to counter these tanks, the Panzer III was upgunned with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon and received more armour although this failed to effectively address the problem caused by the KV tank designs. As a result, production of self-propelled guns, as well as the upgunning of the Panzer IV was initiated.
It was intended to fight other armoured fighting vehicles and serve alongside the infantry-supporting Panzer IV. However, as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed.
----
I propose this :
Make the Pz3 into a puma (ie: I'm not saying put a Puma
instead. I'm saying give it role of Puma - which it has)
As an early MBT, it will need a considerable upgrade
as tech moves along. This is what StuG3 and J, L and N
versions are for. Plus it's historical.
You disagree with that, might as well put Pz4 and Stg4.
And give up on OH, and make it Wehr 1.5.
StuG3 was used more defensively, as the fortunes of
war turned for the germans. Plus it packed a hell more
of a punch.
Early Pz3, then shift on to StuG3. At least this way,
they're not wasted and to be thrown away.
Anyone with me on this?
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 12:41:49 AM
Addendum :
StuG4 is an early quasi Panzer4. Cheaper, with less
capabilities. Pz3 to StuG3 is a radically different tank :
- More armor.
- Upgrades from 37mm to 50mm to 75mm!
- More AP capabilities.
- Can annoy IS2 where Pz3 is - totally - outclassed.
It's to the Pz3 what the Sherman 76 is to the Sherman 75.
Pretty much all the surviving Pz3's were converted to StuG3.
And, it was the most numerous german of WW2.
Shouldn't that count for something?
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 12:44:29 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_III)
The Sturmgeschütz III (StuG III) assault gun was Germany's most produced armoured fighting vehicle during World War II. It was built on the chassis of the proven Panzer III tank. Initially intended as a mobile, armoured light gun for infantry support, the StuG was continually modified and was widely employed as a tank destroyer.
: Tank destroyer.
: Infantry support.
: MOST PRODUCED AFV of germans during WW2.
What you are saying is like taking away the American's
Sherman, for #$($*($!#
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
As the StuG III was designed to fill an infantry close support combat role, early models were fitted with a low-velocity 75 mm StuK 37 L/24 gun to destroy soft-skin targets and fortifications. After the Germans encountered the Soviet KV-1 and T-34 tanks, the StuG III was equipped with a high-velocity 75 mm StuK 40 L/43 main gun (Spring 1942) and later – the 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 (Autumn 1942) anti-tank gun. These versions were known as the Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung F, Ausf. F/8 and Ausf. G.
: 1942. So by default it's the tank destroyer role.
Overall, Sturmgeschütz series assault guns proved very successful and served on all fronts as assault guns and tank destroyers. Although Tigers and Panthers have earned a greater notoriety, assault guns collectively destroyed more tanks. Because of their low silhouette, StuG IIIs were easy to camouflage and a difficult target. Sturmgeschütz crews were considered to be the elite of the artillery units. Sturmgeschütz units held a very impressive record of tank kills – some 20,000 enemy tanks by the spring of 1944.[2]
It's fascinating read, really. I suggest it to all :)
- Most numerous tank.
- Most numerous kills.
Pz3 should be convertable to StuG3.
StuG3 should be buildable.
Case closed.
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 12:55:46 AM
Bombing raids on Alkett factory resulted in significant drops in StuG III production in November 1943. To make up for the loss of production, Krupp displayed a substitution StuG on Panzer IV chassis to Hitler on 16–17 December 1943. From January 1944, the StuG IV, based on the Panzer IV chassis and with a slightly modified StuG III superstructure entered production.
Just an interesting tidbit :)
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@Loupblanc
+1 to your ideas :D!!! I wonder what the devs have planned for the ostheer...
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Thank you :)
- Well, yea. Although OstHeer may have a quick ideology
at first, you got to think of the endgame. Pz3 aren't of the
same caliber as the Shermans, T34's, so unless you want
them to vanish completely from the battlefield early
(And completely forego the German's *MOST NUMEROUS
TANK OF THE WAR*)...
Eh ;)
Mind you, I think Soviet veterancy system needs
an overhaul... I suggested a hero system a way back... ;)
-
I have nothing to do with the ostheer design, even when they discuss stuff I just "watch" silent... because I think that's not my field... I don't think they change the soviet vet, but I'd like to read your concept if you mind :).
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- Dang it :)
- The soviet hero system was similar to the british
officer system. Except of having dedicated officers,
though, you have one guy who managed to rise above
his peers, and thus inspire them. It's like brit officer,
but using selfish xp (Like USA vet) but who radiates
vet for others (like British officer). Soviets can't have
more than 1 vet (themselves). But the first one (the
hero) gives out a +1 vet aura (Thus 2).
For there to be a 2nd hero, the 1st one has to die?
Maybe a little extra bonus, too. For example, a tank
hero would get a commander (like british tanks) with +
range.
The current soviet system has :
Selfish xp/vet : Like USA.
Officer xp/vet : Like british (commander squad)
(Which is very very hard to level)
And Armory Vet: Like Wehr.
Why nothing special and unique?
I like the weak vet/hero system, myself.
It's a touch up the old 'Soviets get no vet', throws in
something unique, and yet isn't a copy of the 3 vet
system everyone else uses.
Thoughts?
I got a more developped thesis on it somewhere.
-
Armory isn't part of vet of the soviets, because it just gathers the upgrades that could be scattered in the buildings each unit is produced. It doesn't provide any vet, just upgrade the unit(s).
It's like saying that the rifles have this vet system:
Selfish xp/vet.
Barracks upgrade.
Similar, but the soviets can upgrade most of their units unlike US.
Sorry for being off-topic.
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@ Ghost: Thanks, at least one person who understand what I meant. ;)
@ Loupblanc: Wow. :o Much text.
However, I guess we can't do a compromise. You want late powerfull StuG III which replaces early Pz III.
I want early Pz III with an ability to fight against late tanks. (Not necessarily 1on1!) And I want StuG III alongside the Pz III. Not as replacement. Plus it should only be slightly more powerfull than a Vet2/3 StuG IV.
Otherwise it would look very dumb, when a WH StuG IV loses when a OH StuG III wins. ;D
To the discussion: PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (those what we'll get, I guess there won't be any 3.7cm version, if even one with the short 5cm KwK L/42) is as powerfull as a Sherman with 75mm gun.
Don't forget that Ostheer will not fight exclusivly against the Red Army. After all, we shouldn't make suggestions only based on OH vs. USSR.
Also, PzIII isn't actually needed to fight head on head against T-34. There are other units, too. (On both sides ;) )
You can for exampe win easily against CW with a T1-T3 + vetted StuGs, though they aren't really powerfull. You don't need a Panther to win. So I think you can also win with OH and Pz III. Without a StuG III. :D
-
I want early Pz III with an ability to fight against late tanks.
Also, PzIII isn't actually needed to fight head on head against T-34. There are other units, too. (On both sides ;) )
You can for exampe win easily against CW with a T1-T3 + vetted StuGs, though they aren't really powerfull. You don't need a Panther to win. So I think you can also win with OH and Pz III. Without a StuG III. :D
Panzer 3s were used Tungsten cored AP shells, to fight with the T34s, I think it would be researchable upgrade for the tank. And plus the bigger gun and armored skirts they can match up with shermans as well. The early Pz3 would be like the Hotchkiss tank, but in late game they can upgrade with rmour a firepower to match the Pz4. On head-on-head it wouldn't beat a T34 in front of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten_carbide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten_carbide)
-
- Hmm. Yea, I know. Much text. I used to do that a lot,
then I cooled down on that aspect ;) ... till now.
- I'm sorry, I didn't mean total absolute replacement
(Like Sherman 75 to Sherman 76). But it's a fact that
historically, most Pz3 ended up as N type, or Pz3 (*THE*
most numerous german tank of the war).
! Oh, I didn't mean StuG3 ought to be better than StuG4.
About the same is about right. StuG4 can annoy Russian
tanks. Puma can't (50mm).
I - think - I'll agree not to go with 37mm Pz3's.
That was - way - too early in the war.
But I don't think Pz3's were running around in groups
when IS2 showed up. Explain to me why Germans should
have access to more tanks than the Russians would?
(More of them on the field).
: I'm going for something that justifies
1) Early Pz3 that are quite weaker than Sherman/T34.
If it's equal, it's non historical. If it's weaker, it has to be
earlier, or else there is no point to it.
2) Putting StuG3 in the field. With the place it deserves.
IT IS the MOST numerous german tank of WW2. Quantify
this with removing the Sherman from the American arsenal.
: You are suggesting something akin to this :
(I'll exagerrate, to better underline the message)
- Swarms of 5-10 Pumas that run amok on the field
before the first Sherman can come out, yet, who can
rape Pershings and IS2's in groups.
------
I'm fine with :
- Early Pz3.
- Jack of all trade early one (akin Sherman 75)
- Obsolete against Sherman/T34.
- Subsequent upgrades : N, J to coincide
with first level (Sherman 75/T34-76)
- StuG3 to deal with higher levels (StuG4 level)
(Not saying it's going to to be OP. Saying original
Pz3 needs to be a Puma.) StuG3 needs to be
buildable. No more Pz3 can be built once you go
higher (Panthers, buildable Stug3). Original ones
can be converted on an on-case basis.
StuG3 costs 20% less than Panzer3. (Real life)
How about making Pz3 costs prohibitive compared to
StuG3's effectiveness?
I want a reason to go for early Pz3, yet, not make a
swarm of them, yet must be weaker than T34-76/S75,
yet upgrades bring them on-par (With something
prohibitive).
Ok, you mentionned tungsten rounds? Historical.
Thus, I'm for it. Insanely rare, though. 50 munitions
per use. As per american AT gun. And this would
only make it - adequate -
(Sherman 75 adequate, not AT gun adequate)
----
You with me on this, so far?
- StuG3 is by far the most numerous tank of the war
on German side. It needs it's time in the spotlight :)
(StuG4 stats, with Camouflage/first strike capability
sounds nice).
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 09:25:39 PM
Ok, just went to walk the dog.
Rephrasing.
You want an early Pz3 at the cost of being weaker.
Between Puma and StuG4. With subsequent upgrades,
it gets to stick around to the end, at the cost of forever
being slightly weaker. To offset this, make it more numerous.
With StuG3 being a non-buildable call-in. (Perhaps tree-
oriented).
- And you want the tungsten round upgrade to be
permanent - similar to Sherman 76mm upgrade.
Did I get it right?
- Why should Osteer have more tanks than Russians with
T34's? If anything, it should be soviets who can call-in
swarms of T34's (Dual T34's like PE's dual panthers).
- Why should Pz3 should be more numerous than StuG3?
It wasn't. Production of StuG3 was superior. And numerous
Pz3 were converted to StuG3. Heck, some variants were
re-converted into StuG3's.
- Tunsten is expensive. Rare. Insanely so. Even for the
Americans (Read some stories about how they were
limited to M10's, TDs and Tank crews developped a black
market trading Tungsten AP rounds off the M10s and unto
the Shermans. Interesting stuff. Needs a munition cost.
J and N variants exist and are historical. I'm fine with that.
But they're not enough to deal with later mediums. Unless
Tunsten - with a muni cost -
But I'll be nice and concede a point ;)
- N variant also used emergency AP ammo ;)
(Although I insist it's non-emergency ammo shouldn't
dent the paint of tanks) : ie : PE Panzer4 IS tank.
I think Pz3 should exist. Yes. Puma early? Yes.
Swarmable? No. Upgradeable? Yes. Tunsgten? With ammo
cost. StuG3 *AS* an upgrade. On-case. And buildable
as StuG3 fresh from factory. With camo first strike.
We basically agree.
Except you think Pz3 should be more numerous than T34.
And That Pz3 should be more numerous than StuG3.
-
hmmmm, how about the upgrade eg. Pz3 tanks, I got an idea. If OH have a similar Tier upgrade to WE, then the wehicles will upgrde automaticly, when the players enter from T1 to T2 for example. It's simple, not copy/paste as the WE/Russian type, but have to cost. Shows a little different.
+1 for Loupblanc, he's typing happy, but explains so much, that is actually interesting reading it. ;)
-
Mhhh Loup, you explain your points very well.
I agree that PzIII Ausf. J (that's the one we'll likely see in OH) should be as good as Sherman 75cm (with the long L/60 KwK it could penetrate T34/76 front armor till 500m!). That's a (historical) fact.
I also agree that it should come sometime in between Puma and StuG IV (both are T3).
Not too early! Early tank is in my opinion Pz II "Luchs". So its main enemies are Shermans and T34/76 (which it can win against, if used probably!)
It should be upgradeable with Panzerschürze + ability to shot Wolfram-munition (tungsten, of course expensive but effective).
I don't know if you agree, but it should also have some kind of "tank-zeal" to encourage a usage in groups. ???
Speaking of groups: I didn't meant 15-20. I was talking about max. 4. It's even hard to micromanagement 3 pumas, thus PzIII won't be very different in that point. Don't forget it had around the same speed as PzIV, so don't expect a car-race or something similar. No PzIII speeding over the battlefield like the Cromwell.
Furthermore I agree that StuG III should be in the OH. Plus it's being an assault-gun and "tank-destroyer". I'm fine with ambush-ability and its having better anti-armor-capacity than PzIII.
However, the points in which I don't agree with you:
- StuG III shouldn't be an upgrade.
- It should be an additional unit. What's so bad about it? Sure, it wasn't used much after 1944, but hell, do you expected Hotchkiss in 1944? I doubt so. But it's still in the game.
- Pz III (Ausf. J) should still be buildable when you can build StuG III. If you don't like it, don't build it. But perhaps there are some people who would love to build that tank, even if they are able to build StuG III. What's so bad about it? ???
- CoH doesn't set the damage or penetration made by a gun with real world aspects. So a Pz III gun mustn't be as underpowered as a Puma's gun.
- Pz III (Ausf. J) were equal to Sherman 75.
- StuG III shouldn't be cheaper than Pz III. CoH has its prices set in regards how useful/strong a thing is. Not how expensive it was IRL. :)
- I never said that Pz III were more numerous than T-34 or Sherman. However, first of all again this isn't a perimeter in CoH-universe and second if a German Panzerdivision meets a douzen enemy tanks, in that moment, they were more tanks. ;)
To solve this problem, I suggest a pop of 6 or 7. T-34 has 7pop, StuGIV 4pop and Hotchkiss 6pop, so I guess it's OK. With that limit you can build a "normal" army with a few Pz3 and other units or have your panzer-division. :D
Which wouldn't work in CoH anyway. - Even Hotchkiss can potentially rape Pershing, IS-152 and IS-2. If someone is so dumb to let such a thing drive around without support, nearly everything can rape it with the right amount of units.
However, after all, it's not our decision but the DEVs one. I hope they find something which can make us all happy and is fun to play with (or against).
-
Thank you, I try. It's all translated from french, too.
My primary dialect of choice ;)
Hmm, now, I didn't understand exactly what you meant...
Automatic upgrade once Tech up?
As in (For example) If pop early 37mm (an example) Pz3
from T2, just by making T4 building, it'll become a Pz3J ?
Care to explain some?? I don't think I understand.
Of course, it'd be nice to make all unique and different.
I'm for that, too :) But they all need a few things in
common. Like tech progression. Like no Heavy Tanks
while other is still bringing out first engineers/pioneers.
We know OstHeer will :
Have Pz3, Pz2, and StuG3, and Elefant.
Perhaps Pz4, Pz5 Panther, Pz6 Tiger. And Wespe.
Should have a Marder wannabe, too.
Thing is, I don't know where the Pz2 fits into all that.
Perhaps do the Puma/StuG choice? (T3, though).
(But with Pz2/Pz3) With StuG3 replacing the Pz4 (T4).
(In the order of things).
StuG4 is a quasi earlier form of Pz4 (In Wehr)
While it's other way around in OH, with StuG3 being
the superior form of the Pz3.
If Pz3 is the Puma, then what is the Pz2 ?
Thoughts on how to accomplish this?
(I like the Pz2/Pz3 vs StuG4/Puma choice. Maybe late T2?)
-
I think PzII will have some special ability. However, in regards of combat-performance, it could be like Puma 2cm KwK, like the not upgunned Puma. Armor could be similiar.
So yes, late T2 till early T3 could be possible. :)
While PzIII (depending on what version, maybe we'll see 5cm L/42 as factory-standard and upgun to either 7.5cm L/24 or 5cm L/60?) early till mid T3. (Everything seen as "normal" WH, since we don't even know how many buildings OH has.)
I would assume that Pz III is similiar to Vet0/Vet1 StuG IV, while StuG III could be a Pz IV/Geschützwagen-mixup.
-
@ Aouch :
- I agree that Pz3J/L60 should be in game. SHALL be in
game. If it is equivalent to Sherman 75, then it shouldn't
come earlier. Which kills the whole originality of the concept.
Plus you agreed that it was equivalent - WITH - the EXPENS
IVE tungsten shots. :
: I say Pz3J shouldn't be the native form. Should be
an upgrade. I also say you ought to PAY each time you
DARE to use tungsten shots to make it a surprise match
to a Sherman 75.
- Pz3 should come between Puma and StuG4. Then we
are in agreement on this one. I was thinking Pz2/Pz3
taking StuG4/Puma slots and StuG3 having Pz4 slot.
(Figuratively speaking). Not in it's can-kill-Sherman75
form, though. (J/N shouldn't be native)(Especially
not if Pz2 are running around)(Time frame, yknow)
- Pz3 having tank-zeal in groups. It encourages spam/
blobbing, which if anyone should have, then T34's would.
Pz3 had radios though, T34s didn't, usually. Fine, I'll let
this one slide, if they're nerfed further, and grouping
them is what makes them decent. Give me a minus, I'll
concede a plus. Balance, yknow.
(T34s should have this more, though)
- Tank speed. No Pz3 speeding all over. Hey, I agree.
I'll even put one in. Give 'em british infantry rules. So
that early Pz3 doesn't turn out unbalanced. I like this
very much :) Have the tank-zeal equivalent improve
on this. I like it :) (Slower in enemy territory when alone)
Every forever wants buffs, buffs, buffs. Nerfs give
character. Think about it. It's even an argument for
making Pz3 early. Thus, they don't win the game in the
first minutes of the game, too.
- I'm glad to see we agree about the StuG3's capabilities :)
That's always refreshing to hear ;)
- Don't agree StuG3 should be an upgrade of the Pz3.
Pz4 were viable on their own. Pz3 eventually were not
viable. Then they were massively converted to something
else. Which turned out to be *THE MOST NUMEROUS*
German tank. It fit historically, and it fits the early Pz3.
... You just want an early super Greyhound that
kills tigers, with rare Sherman 75's... (I'm using an
analogy here). Who are more numerous than T34's and
Shermans, too... strenght doesn't fit, three pros don't
have character, and time frame doesn't fit. Plus Pz3
being more numerous than StuG3 doesn't fit either.
- PE Hotchkiss exists for the Stuka upgrade. Personally,
I think it's way too fast for it's real life counterpart.
Plus it's a 37mm for %#!(*'s sake. Hotchkiss should be
slower, and it's gun should fire slower (2 man crew,
remember?) and it's stuka ammo cost should be lower.
(Thank you EF for that one)(Completely agree!)
(I still think Soviets should have native dual T34 call-in
akin to PE's dual Panther call-in)(Native meaning by
default, not dependant on tree).
- Stug3 *IS* an upgrade of the Pz3. AND it should be
buildable as such on it's own. It's historical, and it fits.
It's WAY more numerous than Pz3. I agree that StuG3
shouldn't be available before Pz3, though. I know they
stopped Pz3 production before StuG3s, though. STuG3
are more effective AND they're cheaper.
It's like you're saying Pz4 shouldn't exist, or barely,
and that Pumas should be spammable and take out
Pershings. Yes, me and my analogies.
How would you say if they decided to remove all
Panthers, Tigers and Pz4 from German army?
StuG3 is the #1 most numerous WW2 german tank.
Accept it.
- Hmm, about costs and strenghts...
Pz3 historically came first, and was more expensive.
StuG3 was more numerous, cheaper and effective. It
also came later. The Pz3 also needs upgrades to bring
it up to par (J/N shouldn't be native), and tungsten
ammo is expensive. Hmmm. Ok, then permit continued
production of Pz3, but make StuG3 more attractive?
Required Tungsten shots should help people make that
decision. I'm thinking it as an expensive way to make
those still around worthwhile, but still prefer to go
StuG3. As... historically happenned.
On topic of Pz3 costs, it's coming out early is a part
of it's cost/balance. Later on, making it's price less
attractive once StuG3 is available.
I still think conversion of Pz3 to StuG3 should be an
option. It's historical. It's an upgrade. It fits.
Pz4 to StuG4 is a downgrade, so no point to it.
- IS2/ISU152 raping by hotchkiss... so wrong... so wrong.
But they're expensive little fuckers. Because COH_Reliq
likes weird units shouldn't mean we got to do same ;)
It was brought about because PE needed an excuse to
have artillery (ie: Stuka). Yet not as good as Wehr
version, and yet different unit (which explains the
overblown cost)(Because PE's strenghts are supposed
to be elsewhere).
Mind you, they're quasi T4.
What I'm saying, is you can't make a unit earlier than,
more numerous than, and equivalent/better than T34's.
all in one.
StuG3 is more numerous than Pz3. It's historical.
Explain to me why you want super Greyhounds and to
quasi delete shermans? (Yes, me with my analogies).
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 04:40:15 PM
I think PzII will have some special ability. However, in regards of combat-performance, it could be like Puma 2cm KwK, like the not upgunned Puma. Armor could be similiar.
- Pz2 : Ok we agree that Pz2 is/should be the Puma.
20mm+MG and no 50mm upgrade. Puma with no 50mm
upgrade capability is a con. Give it a different pro to
keep it around in end-game. Radio/Scout? Funkwagen
radar/Territory disruption? I like it.
So yes, late T2 till early T3 could be possible. :)
- Pz3 : Late T2/early T3. Ok, we agree.
While PzIII (depending on what version, maybe we'll see 5cm L/42 as factory-standard and upgun to either 7.5cm L/24 or 5cm L/60?) early till mid T3. (Everything seen as "normal" WH, since we don't even know how many buildings OH has.)
- Pz3 : Native is short 50mm or short 37mm (Pref short 50m)
Upgradeable to J long 50, or N short 75mm. Pz3 doesn't
carry 75mm in turret.
The Ausf. A to early Ausf. F were equipped with a 3.7 cm KwK 36 L/46.5 which proved adequate during the campaigns of 1939 and 1940 but the later Ausf. F to Ausf. J were upgraded with the 5 cm KwK 38 L/42 and the Ausf. J¹ to M with the longer 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 cannon in response to increasingly better armed and armoured opponents.
Ok for 50/L42 native, upgrade to J 50/60. AT upgrade.
The Panzer III remained in production as a close support vehicle. The Ausf. N model mounted a low-velocity 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 cannon - the same used by the early Panzer IV Ausf. A to Ausf. F models.
Ok. I was wrong. upgrade to N 75/24. AI upgrade.
: As for OH buildings. that's easy. HQ + 3 or 4 extras,
like all other factions (Xcept for British). OH is geared
for earlier game, so HQ+2 or HQ+3. Skip ultra late.
I would assume that Pz III is similiar to Vet0/Vet1 StuG IV, while StuG III could be a Pz IV/Geschützwagen-mixup.
- Here is where you are wrong. Although, no, we just
phrase it differently.
Vet0/1 StuG4 is helpless against infantry. While Pz4
can do all that a StuG can do, and more.
Pz3 should be a weaker, earlier Pz4 that you need to
upgrade to make it equivalent in one, but not both ways
(AT or AI) Pz4 can do both - at same time.
StuG3 is totally and absolutely anti-tank. With camo/
first strike capability. We agree here.
Pz3N was kept around for AI role. Historical. And also
because StuG3 sucks against infantry.
Pz3J shouldn't be equivalent to StuG3 AND be decent
against infantry (All those extra MGs, yknow). It should
rather be a way to keep the Pz3 you've already built
sorta competitive, but not quite. (And expensively so)
Making the StuG3 the better choice (No expensive
tungsten rounds as required obligation).
- And I agree we don't make the choices, the DEVs do.
Can only hope I can forward my arguments well enough
that they'll side with me, same as you.
I'm not so good at that. English isn't my main language,
and a penchant for balance, good playing, history and
uncompromised passion are my forte ;)
I just can't phrase it right. :p
Post Merge: September 09, 2010, 04:47:06 PM
With the appearance of the T-34 and KV tanks, rearming the Panzer III with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon was prioritised. The T-34 was generally invulnerable in frontal engagements with the Panzer III until the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 gun was introduced on the Panzer III Ausf. J¹ in the spring of 1942. This could penetrate the T-34 frontally at ranges under 500 metres (1,600 ft).[3] Against the KV tanks it was a threat if armed with special high velocity tungsten rounds. In addition, to counter antitank rifles, in 1943 the Ausf. L version began the use of spaced armour skirts (schürzen) around the turret and on the hull sides. However, due to the introduction of the upgunned and uparmoured Panzer IV, the Panzer III was, after the Battle of Kursk, relegated to secondary roles, and it was replaced as the main German medium tank by the Panzer IV and the Panther.
By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.
:
- Pz3 earlier than T34.
- Short 50, not 37.
- Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76.
- Upgrade 50 long, short 75. EXPENSIVE Tungsten.
- Upgrade 50 long LOSES out against StuG3 as AT.
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3.
- StuG3 ARE conversions AND built from scratch as such.
- StuG3 is most numerous tank in German army WW2.
- StuG3 killed 20,000 T34s. (Tank killer).
- T34 more numerous than StuG3.
- StuG3 more numerous than Pz3.
- You're not going to make Pz3 more numerous than T34.
-
Sorry, I think I said it a bit too complicated. To make things clear:
Pz III (Ausf. J) being on par with Sherman 75. So it has to come in about the same time. When Sherman 76 is upgraded, you have sideskirts and Wolframkern-munition. Both individual and expensive (because you have to buy Tungsten every time you use it).
If there is a Pz III Ausf. H with the L/42 cannon, then it should come earlier.
Everything clear so far? :)
I like your suggestion how to nerf and at the same time buff Pz III with a "british-style"-tankzeal. So a single tank won't be an enemy for allies (just like in real war, since you seem to like realism). However, in groups it's by far better.
VERY NICE SUGGESTION! Should make it into the game!
StuG III of course better than Pz III, so we're the same opinion here. Ambush etc. is a fine suggestion. Together with my suggested "infantry-use-assault-gun-as-cover"-suggestion ( ;D) its use ingame would also differ from Pz3's one.
However, I still want to be able to have Pz3 and Stug3 at the same time. :-[
How about this: You can build StuG III after some upgrade (or new building, don't know). It's a bit expensiver than Pz III (since it's better, damn ;)).
Now, a new vehicle comes in the game: A Bergepanzer III. You can recover PzIII-wrecks with it. Then it rebuilds the destructed Pz III into a StuG III. How about this?
Additionally, you could perhaps be able to construct intact Pz III into StuG III within a certain area around the Bergepanzer. Of course, this conversion will cost some muni.
What do you think about this suggestion?
-
@Loupblanc
Oh man... this is very interesting indeed...
Sound good your pz3->Stug3 transition. You can be sure that Luchs will be on the ostheer(remember about Dragon' teasing ;)).
Of course, for the sake of balance you can make a pz3 beats advanced tanks, but Germany has the Stug 3 to offer, and no faction has used it yet. IMO if japan was the faction designed, of course you'll make the Chi-ha the MBT and strong as a sherman due the lack of tanks, but the ostheer doesn't need this.
-
- Pz3 earlier than T34. ✔
- Short 50, not 37. ✔
- Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76. ✔ or better say, not really suck, but be rather inefficient
- Upgrade 50 long, short 75. EXPENSIVE Tungsten. ✔
- Upgrade 50 long LOSES out against StuG3 as AT. ✔ of course
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?
- StuG3 ARE conversions AND built from scratch as such. See my suggestion
- StuG3 is most numerous tank in German army WW2. ✔
- StuG3 killed 20,000 T34s. (Tank killer). ✔
- T34 more numerous than StuG3. ✔
- StuG3 more numerous than Pz3. ✔
- You're not going to make Pz3 more numerous than T34. ? If someone feels like building 4 Pz3, why not? I mean, if I play soviet, I mustn't build T-34 but instead IS-2, altough the first one was by far more common.
-
@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?
He said that all the pIII that you choose to upgrade as AT, would be given the chance to be converted to StugIII.
I think Pz.III shouldn't match later tiers tanks.
-
Of course, for the sake of balance you can make a pz3 beats advanced tanks, but Germany has the Stug 3 to offer, and no faction has used it yet. IMO if japan was the faction designed, of course you'll make the Chi-ha the MBT and strong as a sherman due the lack of tanks, but the ostheer doesn't need this.
The PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (correct me, but that's the one from the teasers) was as good as the Sherman. IRL. Therefore your Japan-example makes sence if PzIII would be as good as T-34/85 (what it wasn't) or Pershing. But if it could kill a early T-34, why not show this ingame?
StuG III should be for heavier tanks or to to destroy Shermans etc. without the high possibility that it kills your Panzer (assuming you're sending a PzIII 1on1 vs Sherman)
Post Merge: September 10, 2010, 01:08:26 AM
@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...
Thanks. ;D
You actually liked one of my ideas. :)
The Bergepanzer should only be able to recover PzIII's and rebuild them. That should be the only possible vehicle it's able to recover. Therefore it won't really take away from PE's Bergetiger, since it has no use for other factions or even other vehicles.
However, it's of course still be able to repair other vehicles. To compensate for that, make normal Pios have a slow repair-rate, so you'd be "forced" to build it.
-
- If Pz3J is equiv to Sherman 75, it shouldn't come earlier. Duh :)
- Tungsten to deal with S76/T85. Well, skirts don't help against tanks, but the added frontal armor upgrade does.
I wanted 50ammo cost to make it on par with S75, but
you want onpar with S76. I say 75ammo per shot?
- Tunsten is expensive, individual, pay each time use it :
Ooh we agree! :)
- Pz3H/42 earlier. Oh yea, In agreement. I found better
equiv. Stuart :)
(Earlier than Cromwell, yet a Greyhound/Puma killer).
: Yup, is clear. Only thing we disagree on is slight strenght-against S75/s76//T76/T85 strenght. I'd bring it down a tiny
notch. A detail.
- Yea, Operation Barbarossa, early Pz3 can be a game killer due to no AT on other side. Slow tank in enemy territory
and needing to function in groups to remove this curse is
a nerf that can be the con to give the pro of early Pz3.
Glad we agree on this ;) Here is where we disagree. You
want a buff, where I want a curse, and a curse removal.
Not a buff.
- StuG3 is better than Pz3 against Tanks.
Not against infantry. Ambush, etc, is actually a nerf-to-
give-a-buff. Makes the tank dangerous without making it 'roaming tank army blob category'. It's more defensive.
: Infantry-use-assault gun-as-cover. I like it.
Use British officer follow tag-on, or PE munition truck
follow tag-on mechanics. Gives quasi immunity to incoming
MG fire, but functions as hold fire or 1/2 firing rate. (More
if they're on the move)(Moving already gives a debuff).
Con to give a pro.
I think Pz3 should be able to do this, as well. Not jsut StuG3.
German doctrine is protect infantry with tanks.Where Soviets
protected Tanks with infantry.
- Of course you can have Pz3 and StuG3 at same time.
They don't do same job.
- Ok, we agree Pz3 (native not upped) should be buildable
BEFORE StuG3. Good.
- Yup. StuG3 should be buildable.
- Nope. StuG3 is LESS expensive than Pz3. Give it big cons, too. 0+1 mg instead of 2+1 mg (Like Stug4/Pz4). I think of
StuG3 as more of a Marder3. Serious flaws, cheap, but deadly
against tanks. Numerous, too. Not as good as a Marder,
because it has armor, but give it lockdown and Camouflage,
and you've got an M10 in Sherman armor with less mobility.
: I'll agree with same cost, if the necessary muni-per-shot makes Pz3 ultimately the more expensive choice. Not to
mention the J/N upgrade from native H.
BergerPanzer3 : Nice. I like how it'd rebuilds destroyed Pz3 into StuG3's :) Slight detail, PE has BergerTiger because 1)
It's their default crush AT traps vehicle. And because PE
doesn't have medic bunkers, so they got vehicle 'medic'
bunkers (for vehicles, not infantry). Can you really have both ? I'm totally for anything that encourages switching all or
MOST Pz3's into StuG3's though ;)
Normally, I'd agree with the Pz3 to StuG3 conversion next to Berger3, but PE Pz4AI, Sherman75, Greyhound, etc, can all
upgrade without help away from home (But they got to be
within territory). Heck, I'd make it so can only upgrade next
to HQ if it was left to me (Blitzkrieg mod is like this). But
got to stay within context, here. Of course, I like. But I'd
have to say Berger3 isn't necessary for upgrade. Salvage,
though, is nice. (Russians should be able to do this too, but,
bleh) ;)
@ Black :
Yea Pz3H - Pz3J/N - StuG3
as the Grehound - Sherman 75 - Sherman 76 progress ;)
@aouch:
Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76. ✔ or better say, not really suck, but be rather inefficient (Like Stuart against a Pz4) :)
We're talking Pz3H 50 short, here.
: StuG3
- Preexisting Pz3's should be convertible to StuG3 like Puma20 to Puma50.
Not like Sherman 75 to Sherman 76. So all Pz3 won't go
poof ;)
- StuG3 is native, non-doctrine, buildable tank that old Pz3 CAN be made into.
: Pz3 should not be more numerous than T34. / re: Why not? If soviet, go IS2 skip T34/76. Fine. My bad, but making lots
of T34s should be easier than making lots of Pz3.
I didn't mean that you are incapable of making additional Pz3s unless opponent makes
T34s (Fluid cap limit), but that T34s should be cheaper and easier to blob than Pz3s, not the other way around.
: While we're on the topic, I think Pz3s AND StuG3s should have 8 pop. Not 6, not 4.
@ Blackbishop :
Eh. I meant all and any Pz3 would be given a chance to be converted to StuG3. H to stug3. And J to Stug3. And N to StuG3. Aye. I don't think Pz3 should match later tiers tanks by default, even when upgraded. StuG3 should be able to match later tanks but with limitations (Little AI capability,
and perhaps needing to be locked down)
@ Aouch :
Pz3J is as good as Sherman75. Not 76. Needs tungsten to deal with 76/T34-85. But there's a small detail, here. Both those tanks had decent anti infantry capability. The 50mm long vs 76mm/85mm should be completely neutered against
infantry. Give it AT gun vs infantry stats. You're only talking anti tank here. You got to look at the broader picture.
You're talking Pz3 eats greyhound, Pz3J eats Sherman76, StuG3 eats Pershing. *AND* is more numerous than their counterparts (Shermans/T34s).
I'm talking P3 gets earlier advantage, but doesn't
compete later on, unless you use expensive ammo-per-shot tungsten. P3 that shouldn't out-spam T34/Sherman/M10. I'm talking about StuG3 that are average (Think Stug4)(But more
expensive) and that have to be used more defensively to
rape decisively (Camouflage/first strike/lockdown) But
without needing tungsten shots. Making it more similar to
a Marder, but with armor.
- On the topic of Berger3. 2x speed repairs? Same as PE Berger :)
Pro : Cheaper than PE Berger.
Con : Can only salvage P3's into StuG3
Con : Not a heavy crusher.
Con : More fragile.
I like it. I like anything that doesn't say buff, buff, buff.
Plus, it's an argument for not making Pz3 'cheap' :) It'll cost
about the same thing as a Sherman, just you can buy one earlier.
And it won't be as good down the line. (Although still a MBT).
Define 'slow' repair-rate? I'd prefer to say 'normal repair-rate'.
-
Hmm, now, I didn't understand exactly what you meant...
Automatic upgrade once Tech up?
As in (For example) If pop early 37mm (an example) Pz3
from T2, just by making T4 building, it'll become a Pz3J ?
Care to explain some?? I don't think I understand.
Of course, it'd be nice to make all unique and different.
I'm for that, too :) But they all need a few things in
common. Like tech progression. Like no Heavy Tanks
while other is still bringing out first engineers/pioneers.
In WE there is a reasearch to tech up Tiers in the HQ What I had in mind is this: staying in the wehrmacht style, in tier 2 you can build the Pz3 (with a building). If you tech to Tier3 the Pz3 will be upgrade with a bigger gun and/or armoured skirts or it would be researchable, like the the Panther Battlegroup in PE, so the 50 (75?) mm gun goes globaly to every pz3 tank on the field.
Wit Pz2 Lusch I can only imagine to early infantry support and firepower like the Puma, the first tank (like the Stuart) can eat it breakfast.
In the eastern front there was Rommel's Ghost Division, they got light tanks only, with elite crew, that would be some good start, looking what kind of use there was the Pz3 in the EF.
-
- We've agreed the 37mm Pz3 was in wrong period.
So short 50mm Pz3 (H) ought to be default by 1942 (circa).
The long 50mm AT (J) Pz3 and the short 75mm AI (N) models
are mutually exclusive, so we can't do a global upgrade.
Also: 1) Pz3 comes out early. If you give it an easy
global upgrade that makes it competitive later on, and allows
to skip StuG3, that's exactly what people will do. Think USA
rifleman spam, then they suddenly all get BAR rifles...
2) Germany's economy wasn't doing well with all the
bombardements. Not all Pz3H-Pz3L/N conversions were
done all at the same time. Plus how do you justify
recalling 100% of your MBT while in the middle of the
war? ;)
No. Pz3 must have access to upgrades, yes, but
ultimately going StuG3 has to be the best decision.
(Way more StuG3 were made than there were Pz3)
(Most Pz3 were converted to StuG3)(Not all, but most)
I do like one of the things he's mentionned, though.
PE-style cumulative upgrades for the Pz3 through the
Ostheer buildings, with the ultimate being the StuG3
'upgrade' at which point it becomes buildable from
scratch as well as a conversion. If we use salveage,
then that can be thrown in too.
PE is about the continuous evolution of the PanzerGRen.
Ostheer can be about the evolution of the Pz3 as the MBT.
So it starts early, in a limited state (Like the PanzerGren)
(Not THAT early) with severely slowed speed to prevent
insta-win, fixed when they group with other tanks
(H, J, N, StuG) it all works. And despite what Aouch says,
The Pz3J/N isn't the final form of the Pz3. The StuG3 is.
- A Zeal-like ability which in groups, removes it's 1/2
speed while in enemy territory (alone). It REMOVES
a debuff, it doesn't provide a buff.
- The covers infantry can be one of those abilities.
- Salvage can be one of those abilities. (to StuG3)
- StuG3 camouflage/improved sights/AT (It's a Pz3)
- Improvements which make StuG3 cheaper to make.
- Tungsten shots (Expensive per use)
Which I suggest to be quasi identical to the StuG4,
except it has hetzer/marder3 abilities tagged on,
which are necessary and encourage a defensive/tricky
useage to make it deadly (like Pak38), so it's not a tank
to use to do breakthroughs and rapeage later on.
(You got other tanks for that - panthers? Tigers?)
***
As for the Pz2 lusch. We've agreed it would take on the
puma role. Except that Puma has a 50mm upgrade which
doesn't make it completely useless later on. Pz2 won't
have access to this upgrade. So, what will have it?
It's not a frontline tank. First Stuart rapes it.
So find it another use. Recon? Zone disruption?
I was suggesting giving it a role like the Funkenwagen.
Ressource disruption/recon. But with some armor, and
a 20mm gun/Mg.
-
I think would be good idea, when you reach, lets say tier 3, add something like "raid" ability to Pz.II, IMO the funkwagen role should belong just to that unit.
-
'Raid' ability would encourage to spam Pz2. Pz2 shouldn't
be a 'combat' unit. Recon/harassment, perhaps. I like the
Funkwagen disrupt ressource/large radar capability. It's
very powerful when used properly.
If not, might as well give the Pz2 a 50mm AT gun
upgrade and call it a puma ;)
-
IMO Luchs should have the same armor & health than PE armored car, if you spam Pz.IIs you'll be lacking on resources to keep your line or it's GG because you already destroyed everything he/she can throw you.
-
Im not quite convinced of transforming PzIII into Stug III. Ii see making them as different vechicles makes more sense to me. FOr example: make the Pz III available in T2 and the StuG III available in T3.
Use the same system that The Panzer Elite uses when making upgrades: Stugs and Pz"s have a "Group Zeal" like bonus and for example if you make a research that allows you PzIII to fire AP rounds so can the the StugIII.
The difference between the two is that I see The Stug more as a tank destroyer than a breaktrough tank and the PzIII is a multi-role tank, that is why is a MBT.
Just my thoughts
-
So much text... :'( ;D
I think now everybody is happy.
We have Pz II "Luchs" early, later, sometime between Stuart and Sherman, the Pz III with short 5cm.
Later, after individual upgrade either Pz III with long 5cm or short 7.5cm , should be on the battlefield around the same time as Sherman 75.
Finally StuG III, which can be gained by 3 different ways: Builded, Upgraded Pz III (any gun) or salvaged Pz III (any gun) via Bergepanzer III.
PzII: AC-armor, slightly nerfed Puma 2cm KwK. Recon.
PzIII 5cm L/42: > light tanks, < "real" medium tanks. light AT, medium AI. MTB. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed.
PzIII 5cm L/60: = Sherman 75. medium AT, light AI. MTB. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed. Expensive Tungsten-mun to help against Sherman 76, T-34.
PzIII 7.5cm L/24: < PE PzIV. heavy AI. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed.
StuG III: heavy AT, light AI. Assault-gun/Tankdestroyer. Ambush-ability, gives cover to following infantry.
Points I want to discuss about:
StuG III has ambush and infantry-cover (we'll call it this way, OK?). Pz III is nerfed in the beginning, thus no tank-rush. However, it gains normal values by using it in groups of tanks.
How about it additionally achieves a very lightly "buff" by even more tanks (4 tanks, no gigantic battlegroups ;)).
I think that's just fair, since it wouldn't be a "hey, now one single Panzer can kill IS-2"-ability but just something to show its usefulness in groups.
But it shouldn't get the infantry-cover. So a player has to decide between Panzer-warfare (very expensive in late-game!) or Combined-warfare.
What do you think?
Post Merge: September 10, 2010, 03:09:37 PM
@ Ryousan: I think we agreed in a similiar system, didn't we, Loup?
Basicly you can first build PzII. Later, you can additionally build PzIII. After that, you will be able to additionally build StuGIII. However, additionally you'll have the possibility to salvage PzIII-wrecks and get a StuG out of it. Or "upgrade" an existing PzIII to a StuG.
-
@ Ryousan :
There is no purpose for a Pz4 to StuG4 conversion,
because there is nothing that the StuG4 offers which
the Pz4 doesn't already do.
The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion makes sense because :
- 50mm to 75mm LONG BARREL
- Better frontal armor
- There were 3x more StuG3 than Pz3 and they're
built on a Pz3 hull...
What you are suggesting, Ryousan, is akin to getting
rid of the Sherman tank, and making Greyhound tanks
strong enough to kill T34/85s.
It's historical.
Either get rid of the Pz3 and StuG3 altogether,
And put in StuG4, Pz4 and Panthers... (And Pumas and
Tigers and...)... but we want something different, yes?
Early Pz3 that culminates to StuG3 is the way.
What you guys propose is early Pz3 that sticks
around to 1945 and kicks IS2 butt.
Don't you see anything wrong with that?
Small note :
Pz3L60 gains some AT, but loses AI (AT gun vs inf
capability)(Miserable)
Pz3L24(75) gains considerable AI (Sherman 75 like)
but miserable AT. BUT IT CAN USE Tungsten rounds.
(Historical). Perhaps costlier, though, for them.
Post Merge: September 11, 2010, 06:52:11 AM
As for the Pz2, if you don't intend to make it different
from the Puma in some way...
... Why not put Puma instead?
-
I don't know why you, Loup, criticize Ryousan's thought.
After all, I thought that's what we want?
T3 Pz3 which is able to upgrade to 5cm L/60 to be an effective MTB to fights against Sherman 75 and has sideskirts (in CoH, sideskirts improve the whole armor, not only help against anti-tank-rifles!) and tungsten-ammunition to fight against Sherman 76 and T-34.
T4 StuG3 as tankdestroyer and infantry-support-gun.
Of course, Pz3 is able to upgrade to StuG3.
But Pz3 can be still present when IS-2 is on the field. That's the whole point about a Pz3 as MTB, since StuG3 can't be a MTB. I've told you countless times, that Pz3 L/60 won't go 1on1 against a T-34/85 nore IS-2. But if an enemy don't use them, Pz3 are effective as a group.
If someone use them, you'll have to get StuG3 or you are likely to lose. :)
Post Merge: September 11, 2010, 04:11:26 PM
After thinking a while about it, I came to some conclusions:
First of all, we should stop thinking in the scheme: Allies act, OH reacts. An OH-player can also force his play-style on the enemy. ;)
Second, I now agree with Loup, that Stug3 should be a little bit cheaper than Pz3. (MP, not fuel, which should be around the same value.) Not only for realism-purpose but also for the sake of gameplay.
I'll explain it:
As OH-player, you have two possibilities how you do your tank-strategy.
First one is that you focus on a defensively Stug-tactic. Because Stug is cheaper than Pz3 but comes later, it would be dumb to produce a great amount of Pz3 and then upgrade them to L/60 and later to Stug3, which would cost too much resources. Therefore you rather build a few Pz3 L/42 to have at least some tanks. However, few tanks -> no early attack (remember slow movement in ET). Later, you build Stug3 and upgrade the existing Pz3. Because they cost less MP, you've enough left to recruit infantry to support you Stugs and allow to start a big attack. Focused on late victory.
Second strategy is to bump out a lot Pz3 L/42 to allow early charge on ET. Then upgrade to L/60 to give them a chance to fight against enemy early medium tanks. You have to focus on a mid-game victory, because fighting with Pz3 against enemy tanks in a later stage of the game will most likely cost you a lot of ammo (-> tungsten). Of course, you can still upgrade to Stug3, if you can't break through the enemy's frontline, but this will perhaps eat up the very last munition-resources you've got.
What do you think about this, Loup? :)
-
- Why Ryousan's : Because he was against giving main
spot to the StuG3. What he was saying, essentially, is
that StuG3 shouldn't be important. Or convertable from
Pz3. That's what happenned historically. In huge numbers.
It's like saying he doesn't want USA to have Sherman,
but instead wants to buff Greyhounds to fight Panthers.
- I want Pz3 as early MBT, but inefficient to use
when T34s/Shermans hit the field. They're obsolete.
(Well the L42 certainly is) and tungsten rounds is not
a viable long term strategy (We agree on this)
Let's use comparables :
Stuart - Sherman75 - Sherman 76
Pz3L42- Pz3L60/L24 - Tungsten or StuG3
But it comes at a cost :
Pz3 don't only fight Tanks, they fight AT guns and infantry.
The Pz3L60 upgrade robs them of anti - infantry cannon
capability (Not as much as StuG upgrade, though)
The Pz3L24 upgrade robs them of anti - tank capability
(But they still have tunsten access, although it ought
to be more expensive for them to use it)
The StuG, well, the StuG should have every flaw that
the StuG4 has (0+1 MG)(Via vet)(Not 2+1 like Pz4)
The T34/85 is pure improvement over the T34/76.
The L60 and L24 come at a deeper cost (Because it's
not as much improvement as overspecialisation). See?
T34/Sherman are all-purpose.
As soon as it upgrades Pz3L42 loses all-purpose role
just to be able to keep up - against infantry or tanks.
- Thank you for agreeing that Stug3 ought to be a Pz3
conversion :) / By cheaper, I meant that buying StuG3
ought to be cheaper to make than a Pz3, especially
once you factor in L42 to L60(or 24) to stuG3 (That's 2
upgrades). Make a StuG3 from scratch and it's bound
to be cheaper ;) To balance out effectiveness, I was
thinking perhaps making it same cost?
- Detail : AT guns are cheap. Marder3 is cheap.
But very effective. The StuG3 I propose is basically a
Marder but with armor. And needing to be locked down
and have first strike to get Marder-like punch. It's not
a wunder-tank. Give it enough cons to justify this.
** Ok, essentially, what you are saying, is someone
doesn't need to upgrade to Sherman 76, or even T34/85
or even IS2. If he can win with just Puma/Greyhound/
T70/Stuart, then let it be. Oh, yea, completely agree.
I said StuG3 is the natural ultimate form of the Pz3.
I didn't say you HAVE to upgrade to StuG3 :)
(You have to go StuG3 to keep up with T34/85's)
(Without tungsten)
- Can we talk by MSN? Use up less paper :)
Add me : Famcdgll@yahoo.ca
I'd say we basically now agree on almost everything.
We just phrase it differently.
Post Merge: September 11, 2010, 07:04:37 PM
@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?
He said that all the pIII that you choose to upgrade as AT, would be given the chance to be converted to StugIII.
I think Pz.III shouldn't match later tiers tanks.
- -- -
He said it best :)
I don't think Pz.3 should match later tiers tanks.
Got StuG3 for that. And it's historical. Should they
be able to kill later tier tank? Sure, just not efficiently.
- I like the zombie stug a lot :)
-
OK, I think both of us are fine now! ;)
Maybe Ryousan should clear up by himself what he meant. I'm also talking about Pz3 as MTB and Stug3 as tankdestroyer/assault-gun. Of course with MTB I mean "midgame-multiporpusetank-with-some-risks-when-sended-against-T-34-spam" (;D) and with tankdestroyer/assault-gun I mean "mid-lategame-great-to-deal-with-enemy-armour-tank"
Stuart - Sherman75 - Sherman 76
Pz3L42- Pz3L60/L24 - Tungsten or StuG3
Yeah, that's we I meant. However, OH's tanks are better put in between those, I think:
Stuart < Pz3L42 < Sherman75 = Pz3L60 < Sherman76/T34-76 = Pz3L60+Tungsten < T-34/85 < Stug3
Tanks of the Ostheer differs very much from the existing concept which puts every tank more or less a counterpart. :)
Sadly I don't have MSN. We can use Forum-PN, which is of course a bit uncomfortably, but since it seems that we live in different time-zones it's probably easier.
-
Well I was not against giving a main spot to the StugIII what I meant is that I was against in removing the main spot out of the PzIII.
I just dont like the "recovery" idea. Everybody complined when anyone proposed to include a recovery/advanced repair unit into the Ostheer because it would be "removing the uniqueness of the Panzer Elite" And because seems a little too specific: A repair tank that will be aimlessly wandering the battlefield, waiting for a PanzerIII to be cracked open for then to enter and into turn it into a much cooler vehicle?
Not buying it for two reasons:
It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).
Secondly, if recovering PzIII is the only thing that it does, sound a bit useless a in the practice and to make it a repair vehicle spells like Panzer Elite, And I think that is somewhere you are not desiring to go
Bergetiger is cool because is not unit specific, and can recover anything you or your allies can deploy. If BergePanzerIII is that specific, perhaps as doctrine unit but doesnt convince me for being buildable. I think I made my point...
Also I have my doubts about the "Upgrading into StugIII" system. But it seems solid enough for giving it a shot.
It's like saying he doesn't want USA to have Sherman,
but instead wants to buff Greyhounds to fight Panthers.
From the very beginning, I agreed that there was no way a PzIII could take down a T-34 or whatever. And still as far a I know Panthers still beat the crap out of Shermans dont they :P?
I also agreed that to fill that gap in the Ostheer strategy, a good tank destroyer/assault gun should be included. StugIII is a great candidate for the job, it was an awesome vehicle, the pinnacle of "PzIII evolution".
I just dont agreee in some the ways you are including it, that is all 8)
-
The Panzer IV was made for a reason, they needed to replace the obsolete Panzer III!
I agree that the Panzer III should be in the Ostheer but not as a main tank, more like a faster medium a bit below the main tanks of other factions(Sherman/T-34/Cromwell/Panzer IV)
Also a nice addition would be the Panzer II as an anti infantry tank, like the PE Armored Car/Puma!
If you need a TD the Stug III with the long barrel is a good choice by me!
Also the Panzer II Luchs could be a heavy scout!
The Panzer III/IV could be your mainstream tank equal to T-34/Sherman etc and if you need more tanks you could always go with the VKs(3001H,3601H,3001P,3002DB)either for a buildable or doctrines in which case would be nice to see some bigger VKs(4502 Ausf P1,4502 Ausf P2)or some tanks of the E-series and these ones would go great with a doctrine of prototype units, some sort of Experimental Doctrine!
PS: Panzer III should have the 5cm KwK 38 L/42 gun!
I never said i wanted the Ostheer to have the Panzer IV, i just said it's better than the Panzer III and it shouldn't be used as the main tank!And the VK's were just in case! ;D
-
I agree with you, Ryousan. Bergepanzer III won't be present in every game you play.
But it could be usefull in different ways. First, for its "main purpose", turning destroyed Pz III into StuG III.
For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.
Or you could send the Bergepz with your advancing tanks, to help them staying alive. The Bergepz has the same speed, so it can move around with them, where normal Pios couldn't (+ 2x repair-rate). Also, it has way more armor around it, unlike soldiers.
I think it could be a usefull vehicle, but you aren't forced to build it.
In fact, I think the whole Pz3->Stug3-story with its different ways how to actually do it on the battlefield is an interesting thing and could help keeping the OH new and fresh without stealing from existing ideas (OK, Bergetiger-Bergepanzer... ;)).
Post Merge: September 12, 2010, 10:53:40 AM
@ Cozmin: Come on, PzIV is already part of the other two axis-factions.
Don't you think it would be boring to see them again?
If you introduce PzIV into OH, it could easily go into the direction WH 1.5. And that's what we don't want. PzIII/StugIII is a completely different way how to implement tank-warfare into CoH. It has some flavor of British Cromwell/Firefly but it's outstanding. Unlike adding PzIV.
PzII will be part of the Ostheer. Ausf. L "Luchs" is the keyword.
Loup and I were talking about PzIII first having the L/42 and later moving on to L/60 to have something against Sherman75.
Also, PzIII wasn't faster as PzIV. I think actually it was a bit slower, since Ausf. J and later variants weights more than the original concept of the PzIII took into account.
Oh, and please go away with your VK-models. :)
-
For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.
Now that's nice. If you messed up an assault you don't need bergepanzer, but restart the match. And well experienced player will destroy the wrecks (talking about experience). PE BergeTiger is useful if the wrecks is close to you're base, or they in the base. Otherwise while the recovery whicle can't move it's sitting duck out there for any kind of AT. In that way you recall the bergetank or hoping to recover quick enoug to drive away with it. The Bergetiger worked once when I played with my mate, after that he knows the trick and destroyed all wrecks in sight.
After a messed up assault you're need some fighting units, not a recovery wehicle.
That's my point.
-
- I live at -5 Greenwich (New York time)
- My idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
(Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.
When Aouch says Pz3L60+T = T34/85 he fails to
adress a point: It comes at a price : The loss of
AI capability (Should be AT gun versus infantry
level). Plus, needing to upgrade THEN to use tungsten
is innefficient. *BUT* This helps this 'Stuart' stay in
the game. A more efficient way is to go StuG3.
But this further hurts the anti infantry role. My
concept of the StuG3 is an 8 pop tank. More similar
to Hetzer (also 8 pop) and Marder3 (Also 8 pop)
I believe in following history as much as possible.
Otherwise, might as well put Klingon Battlecruisers and
BF2142 Walker Tanks on the battlefield.
StuG3 was *THE* most numerous German tank of WW2.
Would you remove the Sherman from USA faction?
Since we propose to give Pz3 to the Ostheer, I PROPOSE
to find ways to START with Pz3, then to end up/switch
to StuG3 in a huge way. Now, this is not necessary
(I don't make Shermans with all upgrades, all the time)
Not all, but most Pz3 were changed to StuG3 from 1943+
*ERROR* The Panzer4 was *NOT* built to replace the
Panzer3. The Panzer4 was made about same time as Pz3,
but had a different role. It replaced the Pz3 in the AT
/All purpose role because Panzer 3 couldn't do the job
anymore. Which is why I propose to make Panzer3
keeping up... inneficient. Did they throw away all Pz3's
once they made Pz4 long barrel? No. They converted to
StuG3.
- I'm just proposing a thousand ways to make Pz3
switch to StuG3 (You don't HAVE to, but the tools are
there)(Like you don't need to make USA riflemen to win)
** Pz3 short 50 is Early tank *Stuart*
That can hurt later tanks with upgrades - but not efficient.
** StuG3 is efficient.
- Is cheaper than P3L60+Tungsten.
- Can be converted, can be built. Salvaged Pz3
become StuG3. Non-doctrine. Is default, like Sherman 76
is not doctrine-specific.
It was most numerous tank of Germany in WW2.
Do you propose to make T34 doctrine-specific?
: : :
Yes, Panzer4 were used on East Front. Panthers, Tigers.
the best approach would be to take Wehrmacht, PE
and Ostheer and make *ONE* faction that can do it
all... then USA/Brits etc would want the same done to them
and, then we'd have to make use that KT can only
be used against Americans, and British/USA can't fight
on map when Soviet is present, and... ... no. Won't happen.
So we're building OstHeer with the idea of telling
the story of the Panzer3 and the StuG3 ... instead
of the Panzer4. Not making the Panzer3 as good as the
Panzer4, but telling a limited part of the story, while
keeping true to history.
**
On topic of salvage :
USA, Brits, Wehr have Medic/Salvage of Infantry.
So should Soviets, on a different level (Don't need
medics? But it's done automatically?)
Soviets had salvage, but it was removed.
PE Salvage *REPLACES* their infantry-salvage
capability. It's one or the other.
Will OstHeer have medic-salvage of infantry
(It'll be the 4th faction to have this)
Or shall we give them a vehicle salvage of tanks
(It'll be 2nd faction to have this). So your argument
of it being PE-specific doesn't work if you propose
to give it medics ;) Right?
The BergerPanzer could be 6 pop instead of 10.
And minus heavy crush.
Cheaper.
And all part of giving tools to 'have lots of StuG3's
(While still making Panzer3s). It's just an option.
Nothing more.
** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
: StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
- All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
- Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
- 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
- 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
- Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
+ Cheaper to make than to convert.
+ Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
Can camouflage and First Strike.
And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.
**
Topic of the Pz2 Luch...
You people keep wanting to make it into a RIF
(Recon in Force) unit. It wasn't a front line unit much
after the Battle of France. They mostly got converted to...
Up first we have the first self-propelled artillery gun to make an appearance in FH2! The SdKfz 124 Wespe is a German mobile artillery piece that saw action from 1943 to 1945.
When the need for a self-propelled artillery gun arose, the Panzer II was chosen and removed from service after its inherent drawbacks became known during the Battle of France. The Wespe was little more than a Panzer II chassis with the turret removed and a 105mm howitzer and gun-shield added. It first saw action in 1943 on the Eastern Front and proved so successful, that the German high command ordered that all Panzer II production be reserved for the Wespe, which effectively canceled other projects such as the Marder II. By mid-1944 682 Wespes had been produced along with another 158 weaponless ammunition carriers. The SdKfz 124 Wespe was modeled and skinned by Toddel.
http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/100819/wespe.jpg (http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/100819/wespe.jpg)
hehe ;)
This would be perfect in our Panzer3 to StuG3 discussions.
Could make Panzer2 to Wespe and Marder2 conversions too.
* Wespe will be in OstHeer. So think about it.
Only ouch is that Wespe is the OstHeer's priest tank
(A sherman conversion for 8 to 12 POP)
Since this is a Panzer 2 conversion, I'd propose to
make it 4 to 6 pop and have it fire 3 shots instead of
6 (It's same caliber after all) ?
Just throwing that idea out there. What think?
* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)
No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)
**
OH! Just caught onto something Aouch just said :
Using BergerPanzers to keep Panzer3s alive as they
advance... actually, that's brilliant. And can help
JUSTIFY further nerfing of the Pz3 as the Stuart-
trying-to-fight Panzer4's idea.
I really like the idea of (Similar to) a 8 point stuart
trying to take on Panzer4s and Panthers inefficiently.
If you weaken the Pz3 just enough, you can bring it
to 6 pop (with StuG3). Or how about 8 pts to
start, but drops to 6 pop once you buy Panzer3Berger
tank (Thus giving you some wriggle room to add a
Panzer3Berger to your army).
I really like the idea. Thanks Aouch ;)
-
My idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
(Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.
** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
: StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
- All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
- Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
- 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
- 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
- Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
+ Cheaper to make than to convert.
+ Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
Can camouflage and First Strike.
And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.
Now Im completly lost ??? I dont belive that putting the PzIII in the same level that the Stuart is a proper analogy. Hopefully I will be the one that is mistaken and will be quickly corrected.
If not...
Remember, What you are basically proposing is to transform a Stuart into PanzerIV-like vehicle. Upgraded Shermans/T-34s can still blow them to hell if they have "stuarts health" and that leaves the Ostheer without an answer to heavy tanks.
Another problem with Loup"s concept of a fragile Pz/StugIII is for example: Tank hunters can eat them alive,indeed USA and Soviets are disturbingly effective when taking out light vehicles, perhaps even vulnerable to american MG-Piercing Rounds???
Basically meaning that OH tanks are easily predated by something enemy can deploy rapidly in high numbers .The concept is good but has too many flaws, what the point of giving them cool abilities and upgrades is they are destroyed by something the other player can obtain without much effort?
The switch betwwen PzIII and Stug can be corrected with further work ( thoughI would rather see them as separate vehicles that share upgrades as PE grens). For the
PzIII I like the idea of specialized upgrade,
But when making them like zippo packs that will blow up almost instantly when shot by bigger guns. It seems a bit pointless to me...
In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...
-
@ Ryousan :
- The Stuart is an example, as it is bigger than the Puma,
yet smaller than the Panzer4. It can still be tweaked along.
* I understand the vulnerability to AT weapons, and thank
god, too! Or else we'd have OstHeer fielding sherman-like
tanks when USA are still using Jeeps ;) The concept is to
take an idea and to make it fit. Balance as needed, while
striving as hard as possible for historical accuracy.
* Fine. If you don't like my idea, we can go with :
Get rid of Panzer3/StuG3 and put Panzer4/Panzer5
And make OstHeer into Wermacht 1.5
(Not many Pz3 running around in 1944+ anyways)
(Lots of StuG3 - THE MOST NUMEROUS GERMAN
tank of the war!) - But, meh, put Tigers instead.
* Or, make give Panzer3 the Panzer4 stats.
In which case, you can Panzer3 will be equal to
Sherman/T34. And get rid of StuG3. You might
as well get rid of Sherman/T34 and give Greyhound
/T70 their stats, that is what you are proposing.
To every idea, there is flaw.
Every pro comes at the cost of a con.
Take StarCraft. Lots of weaker units, or few excellent
units? / I think Wehr has the few but excellent units
(But defensive) covered. We're talking about making
OH an early rush group using the Panzer3 as it's MBT.
To make things perfectly balanced, every doctrine
would have to be identical, every unit, everything
(aka: Chess).
Now... do you propose to make Panzer3 = Sherman76
(And completely ignore that there were more StuG3
built, and that the surviving Pz3 became StuG3?)
----
Small note on Fragile Pz3/StuG3 :
It ought to be. To reflect that T34/Sherman ate them
alive (That's why Panther4/Panthers took over)
How about this? :
No point giving OstHeer tanks (or anyone) as long
as opposing team has Anti Tanks.
What I would propose is to find solutions to the Pz3/Stug3
vulnerability to AT weapons (ie: Skirts, anyone?)
As well as tactics. We were talking about OstHeer tanks
giving cover to OstHeer troops, for example.
Hmm, there is something called a cover.
(Different analogy). 2 Forks, 2 knives, special spoon,
2-3 plates, 2 glasses, etc. I'm trying to propose something
DIFFERENT from the norm. OF COURSE a few things will
need to be adjusted. It's a question of crafting a 'whole'.
The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion fits very nicely
with the fact that Pz2 and the Wespe will be in.
Those also convert into the other.
If Pz3 is inferior to Pz4 (as it is) then it's excellent reason
to make them into StuG3 later on (As is historical)(Didn't
say you HAD to, didn't say you had to convert all of them)
- It's also logical that they ought to be more vulnerable
to AT fire.
If AT fire is such an issue, what would YOU suggest?
Giving Pz3 identical stats to the Panzer4 ?
You've just invented Wehr 1.5. Congratulations.
- And Deleted the British Stuart (And Puma and T70
and Greyhound and...) Unless they're given Sherman76+
all upgrades equivalencies.
@ Ryousan :
In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...
Fine, we'll put in Klingon battlecruisers and BF2142
Walker TankMechs as per YOUR recommendation :)
Plus a few Protoss Colossus ;)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:11:32 AM
This thread started this way :
okay so in regards to medium tanks for the ostheer I think we can narrow it down for the ostheer to at least two I see that would fit in CoH and that would have to be the panzer IV or some varient of it or the panther. Now I know some people want the panzer III in the ostheer too so do I however I don't see it as a comparable tank to that of the T-34 or the sherman or cromwell in a game like CoH. If the panzer III gets in the ostheer it will probably be an earier tank than the main late game tanks. So what would people preffer to see in terms of the factory based tanks?
----------------
Everyone agrees that Panzer3 isn't comparable to T34/
Sherman/Panzer4.
But we want to add it.
- Your solution is to give it T34/Sherman stats?
(It's also like giving up on the Sherman76/HVSS/Easy8
and saying Sherman 75 can kill Tigers).
But let's not be historical here... ;)
And forget the StuG3.
And the T34
And the Sherman
Let's just buff Pumas, T70 and Greyhounds. Yes?
-
* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)
No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)
Haha, that's true :D gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.
-
WHAT DA FUCK?
Now I'm completely lost.
@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever... ::)
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.
I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!
When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.
BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !
The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.
End of the rant. :-X
Post Merge: September 12, 2010, 04:23:16 PM
I've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell. Sorry, was thinking of Crusader, but in that time, the Afrika-Korps used L/42 PzIII, not much L/60, which could take on them.
And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.
-
@Ryousan :
Not buying it for two reasons:
It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).
You're not offering anything new except for giving
the Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats'.
At least WE are trying for something original, here.
- - -
Panzer 3 - StuG3/4 - Panzer 4 - Panzer 5 - Panzer 6
Should be the progression. Of COURSE the Panzer 3
should be weaker.
Solutions :
Get rid of Panzer3, put Panzer 4 : Wehr 1.5
Give Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats' : Wehr 1.5
Or go historical Weaker earlier Pz3 with crippling
upgrades (Called such, because those upgrades make
them lose something important) culminating in the StuG3.
Pz3L60 loses generalist role, AI role.
Pz3L24 loses generalist role, AT role.
Tungsten is inefficient (But does help)
(Note Pz3L24 can use Tungsten)
StuG3, well, is a StuG. I don't want it to be a super tank.
The only upgrades that aren't crippling are the Skirts
and the top machine gun (2+1) or (0+1).
I also think Pz3 to StuG3 conversion should come later.
Can build StuG3 separately, but conversion option comes
after. Perhaps as part as buying Pz2 to Wespe conversion?
(Tank to SPG factory conversions it could be called).
That way, you'll probably go upgrades first.
But Pz3 Short 50 to StuG3 conversion should be okay.
(Short 50, or L60, or L24) Obviously, you can't convert
all because you'd then be stuck with a bunch of StuG,
and no way to deal with infantry/AT guns.
-------------
You know, I'd love it if I could write short, precise.
Not rant for 20 pages. I feel I have excellent ideas, balance,
etc. I just can't phrase them right.
How about we have this debate in French? :)
THEN I could express myself right.
Anyone want to be my agent?
Aouch seems to understand what I am trying to say,
and to be able to write it into short-easy-to-read form ;)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:27:07 AM
* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)
No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)
Haha, that's true :D gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.
- Yea, I know. It's hard making it all fit.
The easiest thing would be to just give Pz4 stats to the
Pz3, give WehrMacht faction a different skin, only. And
be done. No one could argue that it's not balanced.
Easy, expeditive... sane... and BORING :)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:44:30 AM
Aouch : Quote:
@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
- We never discussed Stuart/PzIII. I am using Stuart
as an example of 'something between Greyhound and
Sherman'. I am not saying they are equal, but I DO
think it's an excellent exemple of why PzIIIL42 would
WANT to upgrade. T34 vs Stuart is a VERY good
example of 'T34 shock'. Yup excellent reason to
upgrade.
(I don't know who would win between a Stuart and
a PzIIIL42 but since the Stuart has a short 37mm
(same gun as the Greyhound), well... Maybe a
Stuart with the Puma's 50mm upgrade would be
about right. Put on Skirts, top sided MG and tungsten
ammo and you have it about right. A decent tank
that comes earlier yet is inferior to Sherman/T34.)
And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever... ::)
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.
- Then stop trying to make Pz3 into decent MBT on it's
own. You're trying to make Wehr 1.5 again :) (Read your
own admission written today)(Of OStHeer light) :)
I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!
- Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
Sherman75 :)
- I agree PzIIIL42(50mm medium) vs Stuart(37mm Short)
is a PzIII win. I want Pz3 to be a Stuart with a 50mm Puma
gun. Still not enough for a Sherman.
- PzIIIL60 on par with a Sherman75. Yea with Tungsten
ammo. We're talking of making a Stuart kill a Panzer 4
here (Poor example, I know. I'm just trying to explain an
idea. I'm not suggesting actually using Stuart stats)
(Mind it comes at cost of losing AI capability)
When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.
- Sherman AND T34 were made in superior numbers.
I don't think OstHeer should have ability to have more
tanks than the Russians or American.
- Oh yea. Panzer3 should be completely outclassed when
IS2/T34-85 comes out. StuG3 would be the way to go.
BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !
- Sure. He should piss his panties if he has a PzIIIL42
No Tungsten and AT insufficient. Like a Stuart meeting
a Panzer4. Upgrade.
The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.
- I'm using an example :) I'm not saying I want it to have
Stuart stats :) PzIIIL42 has better gun anyways. So even
in a 1 on 1 duel Stuart would lose to PzIIIL42. We agree.
End of the rant. :-X
- We should chat damn it :)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:23:16 AM
I've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell.
And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.
[/quote]
- I agree that PzIIIL60+tungsten can take on Sherman
75(Without +/76 refits)(sandbags yknow) or T34/76.
I'm saying PzIIIL42 shouldn't.
- And you keep missing 1 point.
PzIIIL60 OVERspecialises in the AT role. It loses
it's generalist capability as part of the price.
:) We should chat.
-
@Aouch, could you settle down a bit?
He clearly stated that was meaning to the type of unit: Stuart<Panzer 3<Panzer4
Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.
That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...
But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.
-
@BlackBishop !!!!!!!
THANK YOU! LOL SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME!
What you said... is ... EXACTLY...
what I've been trying to say :)
How come you could say it so simply?! Tell me your secret!
- Can you comment on the Pz2 to Wespe conversion idea?
It fits this into the Pz3 to StuG3 conversion idea.
-
Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion... ;)
-
Nubrannosaurus
Ingenery
Offline
Posts: 20
Re: Salutations !
« Sent to: Loupblanc on: September 09, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »
Quote Reply Remove
Hi Loupblanc,
Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it. I looked into the medium tank discussion and to be honest I need to do some major graphing and mapping out of the existing units for the vCoF and OF to give an opinion of my own. I've been out of the CoH loop for quite some time and I can't visualize it well enough to really understand what you guys are debating.
One's thing for sure though is that I've read your posts and you're going at it the right way. I'm glad to see people like Auoch be contributing members to this board but it appears his ideas for the Ostheer are based more on sheer difference from the other factions rather than usefulness or rationality. You, on the other hand, provide a nice historical basis but much more importantly you refer to game mechanics. You've often referred to how the Ostheer's medium tank would react to the Allies' medium tank, which is crucial to balance. You've also spoken of when the medium tank becomes available in comparison with the other Allied medium tanks -- again, another crucial consideration.
Keep it up, you're looking at the theoretical Ostheer far better than most people. I'm trying to get involved with these threads but I don't have a lot of time to map everything out. Maybe I will sometime soon.
Good luck!
P.S. Didn't have time to look at the soviet hero system you designed, sorry!
I received this in my private messages! ;)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:01:17 AM
Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion... ;)
- Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther
stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
= Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.
Let's not worry about history, he said.
Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
OstHeer.
-
About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).
-
Maybe I should really get on of those IM. :)
** Yes please do.
Now:
1) I don't want to make PzIII into PzIV.
** Thank you.
PzIII is first very vulnerable to medium tanks. But multi-role. Like its superior opponents. Then it's upgraded to L/60 but loses its multi-role-ability. But now it should be on-par with Sherman75, so in a 1on1: Both are destroyed. ;)
** I agree. I agree. I agree.
** Yes. it LOSES multi role ability.
** I agree.
However, this situation will probably never happen in CoH, because of the Brit-style-slow-movement an attacking PzIII will usually have 2 other PzIII around him.
** Actually, eh. I was thinking just 1 is fine.
I just want this to slow it down a little. Remove
This later on. The goal is just to slow it down
at first, not cripple it forever. Just 1+1 is good
at first, then the 'curse' is lost.
Furthermore, I'm not giving up Stug3. I just want to the Pz3 to last some minutes on the battlefield. And not disappearing seconds after a Sherman75 arrives and kill them all. Stug3 appears AFTER Sherman76 and T-34 arrives. Otherwise, the Allies will have no chance in midgame, if Stug3 arrives too early. Remember, Stug3 also is able to kill IS2. Therefore it could potentially kill Sherms and Ts with ease. Which shouldn't happen too soon in a match.
** I agree. I think I lean slightly more towards
StuG3, and you lean more towards PzIII. This is
because of the historical 3-to-1 ratio of StuG3
to PzIII later on. I want this to be portrayed.
You wants lots of PzIII, few StuGIII. I don't
want StuGIII as IS2 killer. Hmm, maybe like
SU85?
Therefore, the Pz3 has to fill the gap -> Pz3L60 with tungsten kill Sherm76, Pz3L60 without tungsten kill Sherm75. With "kill" I mean it's able to potentially kill them, but also with the same chances it's destroyed by Sherm.
** We agree.
** PzIIIL42 doesn't have tungsten.
** PzIIIL24 DOES
2) 40/50 for 20sec. 40 is a lot, and 10 is too short. Just my opinion.
** I want same thing as American AT gun.
Same cost, same duration. ... But not as good ;)
3) Panzer 3 shouldn't be cheap. Sherman cost 420mp and 90fuel. Stug4 340mp 50fuel. Pz4 410mp 70fuel.
Therefore Pz3 should be around 350mp and 50fuel.
Take into account you have to upgrade to be on par with Sherm75 plus make more of them to start an effective assault (3+), this means the resources are lacking somewhere else.
** This is an area where I don't know what to say.
(Cost specifics). I was thinking Stuart is about
right. Better gun, but the british slow curse.
What's Stuart cost again?
Pz3L60+tungsten should be MORE exp than S76
350/50 cost? Hmm Try 380/60 (Just under T34)
We can haggle costs later, to fit.
** I don't want big PzIII packs. So movement
curse I would limit at 2 not 3+
Shouldn't have more PzIII than T34/Shermans ;)
Must have more StuGIII than PzIII too.
4) Ryousan want Stugs. Believe me. He just doesn't want to have Stugs as soon as the first Sherman enters the field. Therefore, Pz3 has to be able to fight Sherm. And Stug3 has to be able to fight T-34/85 and IS2.
** I'm fine with early StuGIII, they don't have
to be tank killers right off the start, though. They
have short barrel versions too, yes?
** Pz3 has to be able to fight shermans
INNEFICIENTLY :) And, yes, StuG3 to fight
Larger stuff.
(Note : Long Barrel 75 StuG)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:49:10 AM
What BlackBishop said is EXACTLY what I was
trying to say.
I also agree with blackbishop, since he said that Pz3L60 is basically able to take on Sherman76, but Stug3 is more appropriate to do this, because with tungsten you're basically shooting your ammunition-resources away. However, it should be able to kill Sherman75 without the need of tungsten.
And that's the point we seem to not agree.
- Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.
That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...
But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.
Is what he said :)
I think Pz3L42 should get bad shock against
Sherman75/T34-76. PzL60 would be about
equal (but fatally overspecialized), and would need
tungsten against T34/85-S76 but this has to be
inefficient. I want good reason to switch to
StuG3 and my idea of StuG3 isn't much more
powerful than StuG4. So if you propose a PzIII
that is stronger than Sherman76 (and cheaper)
why make StuGIII ?
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:56:00 AM
About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).
** Hmm, actually, I didn't say that at all. But not because
I am againt it, but because I didn't think about it. But I
like it a LOT! :)
** Not true. Sherman 75 to Sherman 76 keeps it's vet :)
** T34-76 to T34-85 is a different tank :)
** Pz4 to StuG4 is a downgrade, so no point to it.
** Pz3 to StuG3 *IS* an upgrade, thus was done aplenty.
Of COURSE a Pz3 upgrading to StuG3 should keep it's vet :)
** What do you think of Pz2 to Wespe?
It would be a direction different from the RIF (Recon in
Force) of the Puma. And it fits because Wespe is to be
included in OstHeer. I was thinking it ought to have a CAP
though. Maybe 2, maybe 3? 4 Max. Does it want to be
a Stuka-HT (No limit), or a Priest? (Limit 2-3)(But is
more powerful, but is doctrine max ability). I was thinking
give it 3 shots per salvoe with cap 2-3 (Like Priest) but
with possibility of giving it +1 shot per salvoe as a
potential added upgrade?
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 02:08:46 AM
I just said 3+ because I said it earlier in that thread.
I'm fine with Pz3 getting rid of it's British-style nerf with 2 tanks. However, I think this nerf should stay also later in a match. If someone wants to use Pz3, he has to have some more. Otherwise would be dumb, too, since Pz3 is weaker than most medium tanks, therefore you need more to do the same job. ;)
** PzIII shouldn't be about spam like T34/Sherman.
I want StuGIII spam, but not PzIII spam. Slow down
is only necessary early on. Get rid of it with first
upgrade? And 2 Group is fine :)
** PzIII is same speed as PzIV :) Are WE ARGUING
because you want to nerf PzIII and I want to Buff
it??! :) LOL
Historical Ratio: In the early war, the number of Stugs were very, very, very low. Pz3 had the greatest number. This is portrayed ingame with it coming earlier and its need for 2 or more (Brit-penalty). Later, when other tanks outclassed Pz3, more Stugs came in. Just like we're trying to do in EF.
** In 1939/1941. Not 1944+ :)
** I want in order (of arrival) Pz3, StuG, Pz4)
So, yes PzIII comes first. We agree.
** Yup
** Fine, we agree so far.
Many Pz3 -> better enemy tanks -> need for Stug -> most Pz3 converted into Stug. ;)
** We agree except on I don't believe should
have more PzIII than Sherman/T34. I want about
same ratio.
** Yes, most converted into StuG
So basically, I really want lots of Pz3 and few Stugs in mid-game, BUT in late-game few Pz3 (mostly N-variants, just like IRL) and lots of Stugs for infantry-support (our lock-behind-ability) and AT.
** Point we disagree on is you want Germans
to produce more PzIII than Russians/Americans
produce T34/Shermans :)
** But I agree on more PzIII than StuGIII early.
** Yes, exactly (Use the british officer follow
/ PE Ammo half track follow mechanics)
To 2) I can't say anything more: Balancing testing. :)
** Yup, needs balanced testing :)
To 3): Stuart 280mp 45fuel. Rest is balancing testing. But take into account that you need at least a few Pz3 to be effective, unlike Sherms, which can also work on its own (with some infantry support, whereas Pz3 acts as Panzer-battlegroup, Stug again is more like a single unit with inf-support, like Sherm).
** 280/45/6 is too cheap. I was thinking 380/60/6
or 380/60/8 Needs tweaking of course.
** Again, you are trying to push more PzIII than
Shermans/T34 That is wrong.
To Short-barraled StuGs: Believe me, you don't want that. Stubby-Stugs are like Pz3"N". It would interfere too much. Just go instant StuG3"G", most produced one + other versions where used mostly before Operation Barbarossa.
** Plenty of Short StuGs were used early on.
That way, Ryousan won't have to fear early
Stu3Gs eating Shermans (They can't)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:01:50 AM
About the spam:
Why shouldn't there be as much Pz3 on the field as Shermans or T-34? Come on, it's a game, not real WW2.
** Still, try to be as faithful as possible.
More PzIII than Sherman equals no room for
StuGIII. If PzIII can win 1-on-1 against Sherman
AND are more numerous. You're asking to start
game with Tiger and auto-win right away.
Realistic CoH: N44. Not EF. Pz3 should be as spammable/not spammable as Sherm and T-34.
StuG3 shouldn't be "spammed" in my opinion. They are tankdestroyers, not MTBs. Hide them when in defense, lock infantry behind when assaulting.
** No. Spamming PzIII should be suicidal
unless you can win early. StuGIII should be
as spammable as Sherman/T34. 3-to-1 ratio.
Deal with it. (WAY more StuG built in war than Pz3)
About the costs: I would settle with 350/380mp 50fuel 7pop. Because it's worse then Sherm75 and needs upgrading, which costs again ammo. Also, it can't be spammed all around early, because Brit-penalty.
- The problem is you are asking for PzIII to
be 1/2 the price AND still win 1-on-1 against
a tank that costs twice the cost. Think about it.
- Oh, of course. Costs of upgrades need to
be factored in. I *DO* want PzIII+Upgrade+
Tungsten to be MORE expensive than Making
Sherman/T34 spam (Inneficient)
Again, it depends on the player how many Pz3 will be on the battlefield. If he wants to build a spam, let it be. SU makes SU-85 and US M10 eh M36... A tankdestroyer will in most cases win against a tank. ;)
** Oh, of course. If he wants to make spam,
let it be. But it shouldn't be an auto-win strategy.
** Ryousan doesn't want PzIII to be vulnerable
to AT, though.
About short-barraled-Stug: Again, I have to repeat myself: Short-barrel makes no sense, since when you get them, at the same time you could make Pz3"N". Please, let the Pz3 have at least something usefull at all. ;D
You could make them have StuK40 L/43. Like L/42 and L/60. However, that would be a little bit too similar to Pz3. I would rather not again spend endless muni in tanks to make them equal to allied ones. ;)
** As you can see, I am looking for every way
in which to put more StugIII than PzIII ;)
Ryousan doesn't want StuGIII to auto-rape
Shermans as soon as they come out and I THINK
HE IS RIGHT! - Solution : Require StuGIII to
need an upgrade to be deadly (aka : Short gun
StuGIII). Of course, we can also make them
come later (aka : Panthers-era) But I want them
weaker and more numerous (Like StuG4 with
special abilities)
I think the magic keyword here is veterancy.
With the cloak-ability they are also much more efficient in a defending position than attacking, therefore I don't see any problems with StuG3 being overpowered.
** Exacly
** I was thinking weak Marder with good armor.
If T-34 is a "shock" to Pz3, let us the little fun to "counter-shock" them. :D
** You can't :) Because you already have had
your 'Shock' in bringing out the PzIII early.
Actually, I am not phrasing this right. What I am
saying is, T34/76 coming out should hurt/scare
early PzIII (L42).
What you are saying is further PzIII upgrades
correct that problem. (At an inneficient cost)
And I agree. As long as StuGIII wins out in the end.
I think you love PzIII too much and I love
StuGIII too much :)
We should CHAT, man. IM.
We might understand each other more.
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:07:32 AM
However, small detail. If PzIIIL60
is MBT, it can't win against them 1-on-1 AND
be more numerous AND be cheaper ;)
Pz3L60 isn't a "generalist". Therefore you can't really compare prices. Second, it costs about 50-75 muni to upgrade to L60. Then you even need tungsten, which isn't cheap. ;)
However, it's a matter of balancing. We shouldn't think about that. ;)
** Ahh thank you. Yea, the Pz3L60 isn't an
UPgrade of the Pz3L42 as much as a SIDE-GRADE.
Just like the Pz3L24 isn't an UP-GRADE.
Skirts and +frontal armor is an UP-GRADE.
** yea. Need L60/L24 upgrade BEFORE can use
Tungsten. Do you think should have an unlock
before they can use Tungsten?
Am thinking PzIII should have similar cost to
Sherman/T34 if they can win againt them 1-on-1.
- We should chat/IM :)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:23:38 AM
Email to... forgot his name :
Nubrannosaurus
The debate is raging. You should keep up :)
- Also, I had this idea of the Pz2 (in-game) and
Wespe (in-game) could be a conversion(as well
as buildable from scratch).
Priest is a Sherman (8pop) to Priest (12pop).
They were not modified on the go, though.
Pz2 is (4) pop then Wespe could be 6 pop,
and be a 3 shot priest (instead of 6 shots).
There would be a cap on them. Perhaps 2 or 3?
Perhaps a doctrine ability could make this +1
shot and +1 wespe?
What do you think?
It fits well in the PzIII to StuGIII model idea.
Aouch and Ryouchan seem to want to make
PzIII cheaper, earlier, not vulnerable to AT,
more numerous, yet able to fight against T34/
Sherman 1-on-1 and while StuGIII being
present, this being in a secondary role,
when they had a 3-to-1 ratio in the war endgame.
I don't see why PzIII should be easier to spam
than Sherman/T34. Thoughts?
-
- Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
= Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.
Let's not worry about history, he said.
Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
OstHeer
Allllright... ::) Does anybody actually read something I write? I just said that the PzII/StugIII switch need some tweaks, not the whole thing sucks :o. By Christ sake, I was one of the people who said that a good Tank Destroyer was needed, some said Nashorn, some said StugIII I AGREED IN THOSE!!!!
About the Bergepz, I complained about it, because when anoyone proposed that the Ostheer could salvage vehicles, everybody complained about it. If you think it can work be guest. Just dont like the idea of making it Unit specific, if thats the case make it a doctrine unit and everybody is happy!
About Historical Accuracy, I read ::) and Im not unreasonable, and hell I dont want to see Land Raiders and Baneblade tanks in CoH but also I dont want see the Ostheer trying to defeat Shermans and T-34s with flintlock muskets and charging MG-Nests with Hussars!!!! :P
Perhaps I fail to see what Loup was proposing, but when he said a PzIII with stuart stats...its kinda like wanting to defeat actual MBTs with AT Halftracks. What happens when a Pershing, IS-2 or a Comet appears by then?
- Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
Sherman75 :)
I Agree that PzIII isnt a good choice on 1-1 but is really necessary to make it suck so badly? Why not using StugIV stats for the Pz/StugIII? Stugs are still beaten by T-34/Shermans still can take enough punishment to be
considered efficient by themselves. I mean superior to the Stuart and the Puma, yet inferior to the Panzer IV: thats why I think Stug IV is better analogy.
Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)
Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.
-
@Ryousan :
I do read what you write :)
I wish someone *Blackbishop?* Wrote for me. Lol.
I could just rant to him and he'd write what I mean in
2-3 sentences, easy!
@Ryousan :
Could take on 1942 era Shermans perhaps but
those in Normandie were different. COH one is M4A3
(Firefly is M2). The PanzerIIIL60 is more of a specialist
unit. It's no longer a generalist MBT.
I'm trying to make things historical, yet balanced.
What happens when IS2/Pershing/Comet comes out?
... You make StuGIII.
I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
(More than T34/Sherman)
I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
(The Marder is)
* Isn't the Nashorn a Marder4?
Surviving Panzer IV variants - A PDF file presenting the Panzer IV variants (Jagdpanzer IV, Hummel, Nashorn, Brummbär, StuG IV, Flakpanzer tanks and prototypes based on Pz IV) still existing in the world
Yup. Nashorn is Marder4 :)
No problem with that. I'd want it to be doctrine-Tiger
Level, though (Like Flak88 is Tiger of Wehr/Def)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 06:59:29 AM
Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)
(In 1942, in the African Desert)
(Cromwell is better than Cruiser)
(There are many different types of Cruiser tanks)
(Original cruiser had a 2pounder gun - AHAHAHAHA)
(PanzerIIIL60 is a TD not a MBT)
(Like a shitty Panther)
Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.
- Of COURSE it needs tweaking. I'm just throwing ideas.
I'm finding an idea I like more and more. Want to mix
history, realism into good play balance dynamics while
doing something different than Wehr 1.5
You guys mostly propose to make the Panzer III into a
Panzer IV and keep forgetting the StuG III. Thus your
ideas keep looking like : Let's make the Panzer III viable
against all opponents on equal footing against ally medium
MBT.
The StuG? It's 340/50 fuel. I was thinking 380/60.
Maybe 6 pop maybe 8 pop. Aouch says 7 pop.
I don't want it to be a good spammable choice.
Especially not more than T34/Sherman. And meeting
the T34 should be a nasty encounter to an un-upgraded
PanzerIII.
-
I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
(More than T34/Sherman)
I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
(The Marder is)
Loup I agree in all of these.
*Abou putting the PzIII in the same level than the PzIV: I never wanted an Uber-PzIII Just dont want want an Unter-PzIII that cannot take care of anything by its own.
*About the "PzIII Spam": never really crossed my mind, though I liked the Idea of a Panzer Group Zeal.
*About more StugsIII than PzIIIs: can be applied with the proper mechanics. Upgrading needs twaking, but can work . Indeed I came out with some ideas if the BergepanzerIII was doctrine specific:
-Can upgrade your Panzer IIIs to Stug III(even when they are "still alive") for free.
-Can Salvage destroyed PzIII and upgrade them to Stug.
-Can Salvage StugIII wreaks and make them operational again.
*About the PzIII coming out earlier than the Stug: nothing against it. I envisioned the PzIII coming out around the same time the Stug IV comes out, and the Stug coming out around the same time the PzIV is coming out, for example. Depends on the Tech Tree that the Ostheer is getting.
*About the StugIII being COOL but NOT AWESOME: Mmmmm...Still beliving that the OH needs something awesome to finish off the game or to defend it self against Uber-Tanks. Something that is not doctrine specific. I wanted something like a:
-Panzer IV Battle Group.
-A Tiger call In.
-A Stug III Battlegroup.
Just my thoughts.
-
How many Pz. III will you need to gift the game to your opponent?
Panzer III should be the "spear" tank until shermans/T-34, it would erase T70, T90, SU-85(unsupported or ambushed, because if he see you first...), Stags, M8, T17 or Halftracks, light and nasty not-so-early units, until Sherman/T34 comes, it could take the job specially if has vet, but if you see these tanks and you hestiate to make the decision of the Stug upgrade, they are warning you, of course the messages are different from user to user but could be from:
"Hey i have better tanks you could try to stop me if you like we already have a party here, meanwhile I'll keep your fuel, ammo and victory points if you dont mind :)"
to
"We'll have a hell of a party at your base ;)"
or
"Ready for a base rape ;D"
PIII L60 could work at some level but it will serve you as transition to Stug3 or whatever 2nd. armor choice that will be added, considering that are 1-1 with shermans, and you need two to defeat a sherman76 or t34/76. You can delay him, but don't expect to win the war with just PzIII(unless vs Amis with SWC start-i'm just made up that we cannot measure that yet ;)).
PIII L42 will work as an infantry support tank. Nothing more to add :).
The only thing that bothers me is how the british will kill it? There's such tactic as "fast cromwell"?
I forgot to say but for now we can forgot about the bergepanther/bergepanzer ;).
That's my humble opinion.
-
So let me get this right, the Panzer III will act as a main tank until the Sherman/T-34 come, and once they come you can upgrade it to the Stug III to face them?But how exactly do you upgrade them?Globally or each unit?So if it's globally it means you can't built the Panzer III after you make the upgrade, or if it's per unit that means you have to build a Panzer III each time you want a Stug III?Or the Stug III will also be buildable but it's cheaper/faster/better if you upgrade it from the Panzer III?Also what about the Luchs?Is it gonna stay untouched or another conversion unit?Wespe buildable/call-in(doctrine)/upgrade from another unit?
My idea if it's not already like this: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!
-
My idea if it's not already like thise: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!
That's exactly the same idea Loup and I had. ;)
@ blackbishop: Shame we won't see Bergepanzer. I'm curious why the DEVs decided to not have it?
It's a whole different unit than the Bergetiger. Bergetiger is for salvaging wrecks and repairing vehicles behind the frontline, because it's too slow to keep up with advancing forces, whereas a Bergepanzer III's main purpose is to repair tanks on the frontline. It's as fast as Pz III and StuG III. Plus it doesn't have Tiger's armor. However, it has also a second function: Converting Pz3 into Stug3. Destroyed Pz3 and functional Pz3, IMO. Additionally it could also do something similiar to Pz2.
Therefore it serves a new concept, something which doesn't exist in CoH till now.
However, I don't decide that, as always.
-
@Aouch
You wait and see :). Perhaps they surprise you.
-
Panzer II Ausf. L (PzKpfw IIL) "Luchs"
Panzer II Ausf.L in the Musée des Blindés, Saumur.
A light reconnaissance tank, the Ausf. L was the only Panzer II design with the overlapping road wheels to enter series production, with 100 being built from September 1943 to January 1944 in addition to conversion of the four Ausf. M tanks. Originally given the experimental designation VK1303, it was adopted under the alternate name Panzerspähwagen II and given the popular name Luchs (Lynx). The Lynx was larger than the Ausf. G in most dimensions (length 4.63 m; height 2.21 m; width 2.48 m). It was equipped with a six speed transmission (plus reverse), and could reach a speed of 60 km/h with a range of 290 km. The FuG12 and FuG Spr a radios were installed, while 330 rounds of 20 mm and 2,250 rounds of 7.92 mm ammunition were carried. Total vehicle weight was 13 tons.
- Ok, I had no idea what a 'Luchs' Pz2 was. It's a Lynx.
Basically a 'deluxe' Pz2, from what I can gather.
** Yup, pretty much everything that's been said.
* BlackBishop : Aouch wants a single PzIIIL60 to win
against a Sherman76/T34-85 if it uses Tungsten ammo.
* You mistook PzIIIL42 for PzIIIL24 :) (Anti infantry)
* I want PzIIIL24 and PzIIIL60 to be more of a sidegrade.
for PzIIIL42. Not an 'UP-Grade'. PzIII shouldn't have a
top-mounted machine-gun to keep to the 'Inferior to a
PanzerIV idea'.
* PzIIIL24 can use tungsten ammo (Twice the price,
however?).
* It's Wreck, not Wreak :)
* I want StuG and Wespe to be available from
- Buildable from scratch - at HQ/Factory.
- Convertable from existing PzIII/PzII
- Performed automatically from salvage (Needs an
unlock). Perhaps StuG/Wespe can be same upgrade?
*** I was thinking of something. We were discussing
'Global' upgrades. Why not do it soviet style? Pay a big
price at home (Like Sherman76 upgrade) and then the
upgrade/convertions can be done for free? (Just an
idea). Not that I think it should be done per se, but
just wanted to remind the mechanics)(Same coding)
*** If PanzerIII still buildable, should be as a PzIIIL42
(That way, you still need to pay for upgrades)(Like PE
PzIV AI). I'm fine with PzIII being buildable, though.
*** Oh, I'm fine with StuGIII being able to kill uber
tanks, just that it must adopt defensive posture for
it. (Like a Wehr Pak40/Marder3). I don't want it to
be a firefly, for example.
Post Merge: September 14, 2010, 12:23:11 AM
@Aouch
You wait and see :). Perhaps they surprise you.
- Tell us what they got planned?
** Eh, I've been playing BF2/FH2 and there's a 1940 map
where it's invasion of France (CounterAttack it's called).
And the Germans have a StuGIIIB (Short barrel).
I want to see a short barrel StuGIII in-game! :)
-
I personally don't think the Stug III is any good with the short barrel to destroy enemy tanks, if i am right i believe the short barrel is mostly used anti infantry/light vehicles since it has a higher velocity and such but i a long barrel version would be a lot better to tackle heavier armor! :)
Any of these models would be great:
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F.htm)
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F8.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F8.htm)
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G.htm)
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.Gs.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.Gs.htm)
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G%28US%29.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G%28US%29.htm)
-
I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front , many were also converted to flamethrower tanks with enough fluid for 200 fires :)
*In game it would be less efficient than normal Tanks like the Panzer 4
*but still provide an infantry support role.
*Possibly be doctrine specific
yes theres no model but many other suggestions dont have a proper model.
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I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front
Too hard to make a multigun Tank model. Same with M-3 Lee, T-28 and T-35.
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I think upgrades should look like this:
Basic PzIII (L42) buildable. For unlocking upgrades, you have to do a research in a basebuilding. Then you can upgrade to L60 and L24, the upgrade to StugIII may be done near the tank factory, because such a big upgrade anywhere on the field seems unrealistic to me. So drive your PanzerIII, which you wish to upgrade, back to your base and let it be upgunned (acts ingame like reinforce function, where infantry has to be near building) or like already said something like doctrinal bergepzIII could do this on the field.
I think Wespe should be buildable seperately from pzII, because we already got the upgrade thing with pzIII. Maybe it could be doctrinal, but i am also fine with a buildable wespe.
Back to StugIII: I'd prefer it to have a misc of cromwell and stuart armour, and slightly better gun than StugIV, but not as good as Marders. I like the idea with camo and first shot bonus. :)
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Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic ;)
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.
About the StuG III in general:
When StuG was created the main battle operation of this tank was the infantry support with heavy fire BUT from the start von Manstein demand that StuG III could deal with enemy armour so the casemate was construct a bit bigger to carry a bigger gun when needed. Russians heavy tanks and the number of their tanks were the reason that the inconsiderable and small StuG get more and more a tank hunter, a role von Manstein and the StuG-commanders doesent liked.
So: Out of my view gun upgrades for a tank III are good and fine BUT transferring a PzIII into a StuG III on the battlefield isnt a good idea.
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Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic ;)
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.
I know, I was only thinking about the best way to realise this idea ;). Like "So, dear comerades, let's just transfer this to a Stug, i am tired of turning the turret"...
So only the two varaints of pzIII remain, one for at role and the other, similar to PEs panzer IV stubby (same gun), for ai duties. Should both be of same cost? Maybe 50 ammo?
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@MaxiKing6
I like your idea with the Panzer III and Stug III thing!The L42 50mm buildable, than the L24 and L60 are upgrades per unit like the PE Panzer IV has the skirts and MG and the Stug III should be a research at the factory like the soviet have and once you make that upgrade you can either build Stug III or if a Panzer III is near the factory you may change that one!Also the Wespe should have the same concept like the Stug III, global upgrade, than from Panzer II near factory or build them directly from the factory!And if you don't have a regular Panzer II and only the Luchs, that the reason why you should have a regular one for the Wespe!
PS: If you really want the Bergepanzer III to be in game than you should make it doctrine specific and serve not only to recover and repair vehicles but also turn Panzer III to Stug III and Panzer II to Wespe on field!
@TheReaper
Yeah i think those will be some cool Stug III variants and i think it would be even better if you build one stock and get to chose a gun between those too, like MaxiKing6 said for the Panzer III!But in my opinion it's better if the standard Stug III has the long barrel so you can tackle stronger tanks faster and the short barrel anti infantry one should be per unit upgrade!
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I think just these two variants needs to be in the OH for StugIII:
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/33162/view/sd_kfz_142_sturmgeschutz_iii_ausf_a__stug_iii_/ (http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/33162/view/sd_kfz_142_sturmgeschutz_iii_ausf_a__stug_iii_/)
and
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/14656/view/sd_kfz_142_1_stug_iii_ausf_f_1943/ (http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/14656/view/sd_kfz_142_1_stug_iii_ausf_f_1943/)
maybe with armoured skirts. The F variant would be a little slower, that it's weigt increased wit additional armour and the bigger gun.
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@Cozmin95
Thank you! But like Lord Rommel said, its a little unrealistic to do such a big change at the tank on the field, so i think one to be buildable is better, maybe also the idea with salvaging pzIII to stug III. Am I disagreeing to my own argument? ;)
@TheReaper
I like your idea of early StugIII, but when do you think can the player use it? When StugIII enters battlefield, it is up to deal with medium and heavy tanks, the anti infantry duty (which is already done by panzer 3 L24 or even L42) comes to late. But i think it could be included as doctrinal unit. maybe in a tree with elefant/ferdinand as armoured doctrine or something like this. yes, i think, i would like to see it as a middle doctrinal unit (maybe 5 points ;D)
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Well...there is an alternative of the Pz III/StuG III "problem".
The magic word: REWARD UNIT.
Perhaps Ostheer could work with this idea ;)
Think would be the best when the player could decide;
Pz III or StuG III or other systems...
Decision are always the best ;D
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@TheReaper
I like your idea of early StugIII, but when do you think can the player use it? When StugIII enters battlefield, it is up to deal with medium and heavy tanks, the anti infantry duty (which is already done by panzer 3 L24 or even L42) comes to late. But i think it could be included as doctrinal unit.
The most produced Wehrmacht "Tank" a doctrinal unit?
Its like saing that Sherman or T-34 should only be doctrinal.
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@Paciat
Maybe you misunderstood me. I said that the EARLY stugIII which wasnt produced as much as later versions ( stugIII ausfg G) because, like lord rommel said, von manstein wanted the stugs to be tank killers. and that the anti infantery Role is already taken by pnz3. So we could make an Arrangement and take Lord Rommels Magic word "reward unit". For example for any earlier light Tank because stugIII saw First Action in the war against the French in 1940. I totally agree with you that stugIII has to be included in both ways, because both were Important.
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Actually LordRommel's idea with the Reward-system is the easiest way how to implement Pz3 and Stug3.
Pz3 starts with 5cm KwK38 L/42 cannon (Ausf. J), with ability to either upgrade to 5cm KwK39 L/60 (Ausf. J1 or 7.5cm KwK37 L/24 (Ausf. N). Therefore first it's a multi-role-tank, later AT or AI.
Stug3 starts with 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 (Ausf. A-E) and later upgrade to 7.cm StuK40 L/48 (Ausf. F8 or G). So first AI later AT.
As we can see, such a reward-system will have two different types of vehicles and therefore wouldn't be boring either.
However, I doubt it's a that "new" concept.
But Lord Rommel has of course a point in his statement, that Pz3 shouldn't be magically turned into Stug3 in the field.
(That's because Loup and I suggested the Bergepanzer3)
However, conversations weren't really that common.
Only 173 out of about 9000 Stugs were converted Pz3s. :P
-
Yeah, Lord Rommel's is the wisest decision. I wonder what Loup will say when read that...
-
With the appearance of the T-34 and KV tanks, rearming the Panzer III with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon was prioritised. The T-34 was generally invulnerable in frontal engagements with the Panzer III until the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 gun was introduced on the Panzer III Ausf. J¹ in the spring of 1942. This could penetrate the T-34 frontally at ranges under 500 metres (1,600 ft).[3] Against the KV tanks it was a threat if armed with special high velocity tungsten rounds. In addition, to counter antitank rifles, in 1943 the Ausf. L version began the use of spaced armour skirts (schürzen) around the turret and on the hull sides. However, due to the introduction of the upgunned and uparmoured Panzer IV, the Panzer III was, after the Battle of Kursk, relegated to secondary roles, and it was replaced as the main German medium tank by the Panzer IV and the Panther.
By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.
The Panzer III was well designed in that it had a three-man offensive crew (gunner, loader and commander), leaving the commander free to concentrate on commanding the tank and maintaining situational awareness. Although other medium tanks of the time also had this feature, most tanks of the late 1930s had fewer than three men in the turret crew, potentially providing the Panzer III with a "fightability" advantage over otherwise similar tanks, such as the French Somua S-35, which only had a one man turret crew.
The Panzer III chassis was the basis for the Sturmgeschütz III assault gun, one of the most successful self-propelled guns of the war, and the single most-produced German armored fighting vehicle design of World War II.
-========-
As Paciat pointed out, this will make the most numerous
German fighting vehicle - Not be present in Wehr, not
be present in PE, and - maybe - be added as a Reward
unit in OstHeer.
- This means the PzIII is the only OstHeer MBT
Therefore it has to be given PanzerIV stats/equivalency.
- Sherman 75 to Sherman 76 were not conversions. There
we factory built that way. I'll point to you that American
is a hell of a lot further away from Normandy than Germany
is from Normandy/East Front. Rail is easier than boat,
besides, and I can guarantee you they didn't send
Shermans back to America and then back to Normandy
(After they had been fighting awhile).
The whole thing was a Rush from the beaches of
Normandy to Berlin.
** Fine, Lord Rommel. No conversions, no StuG3,
PzIII that are PzIV that will fight T34/Sherman on a
1-on-1 basis and be as/more numerous as American
/Russian tanks (5774 versus 75000)
Production history
Designer Daimler-Benz
Designed 1935-1937
Manufacturer Daimler-Benz
Produced 1939–1943
Number built 5,774 (excluding StuG III)
---
Production history
Unit cost 82,500 RM
Number built 9,408 StuG III
1,211 StuH 42
ThatS 9408+1211.
as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed. The Panzer IV mounted the long barreled 7.5 cm KwK 40 gun and engaged in tank-to-tank battles. The Panzer III became obsolete in this role and for most purposes was supplanted by the Panzer IV. From 1942, the last version of Panzer III mounted the 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24, better suited for infantry support. Production of the Panzer III ended in 1943. However, the Panzer III's capable chassis provided hulls for the Sturmgeschütz III until the end of the war.
---
In terms of the resources expended in their construction, the StuG assault guns were extremely cost-effective compared to the heavier German tanks, though in the anti-tank role, it was best used defensively, as the lack of a turret would be a severe disadvantage out in the open. As the German military situation deteriorated later in the war, more and more StuG guns were constructed in comparison to tanks, in an effort to replace losses and bolster defences against the encroaching Allied forces.
--
In 1944, the Finnish Army received 59 StuG III Ausf. Gs from Germany (30 Stu 40 Ausf.G and 29 StuG III Ausf. G) and used them against the Soviet Union. These destroyed at least 87 enemy tanks for a loss of only 8 StuGs[2] (some of these were destroyed by their crews to avoid capture).
--
The vehicles of the Sturmgeschütz series were cheaper and faster to build than contemporary German tanks; at 82,500 RM, a StuG III Ausf G was cheaper than a Panzer III Ausf. M, which cost 103,163 RM. This was due to the omission of the turret, which greatly simplified manufacture and allowed the chassis to carry a larger gun than it could otherwise. By the end of the war, 10,619 StuG IIIs and StuH 42s had been built.[1]
-----
Grats.
I demand you buff T70 and Greyhound to be
same strenght as Sherman/T34, and that you make
those two tanks 'Reward' units, too.
Without StuGIII , you'll have to make PzIII equivalent
to the PzIV. Welcome Wehr 1.5.
You're removed the MORE probably German conversions,
for the LESS probably American conversions. Your OstHeer
looks less and less historical, and interesting, every moment.
I remember when you said you didn't want to bring in
Finnish units, etc, because there were still plenty of
German units to bring in.
... What's the point?
When you craft it so UTTERLY wrong from historical canon?
You might as well put Klingon battlecruisers.
There's no difference.
Put in some Leopard II tanks while you're at it :p
Guest Eastern Front stopped being about representing
the Eastern Front :)
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
- Boring?
Seriously. Sherman75-Sherman76 upgrade makes
even LESS sense.
After the heavy tank losses of the Battle of the Bulge, in January 1945, General Eisenhower asked that no more 75 mm M4s be sent to Europe: only 76 mm M4s were wanted.[42]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank)
The Sherman 75 wasn't a conversion to the 76. It was
a completely different tank.
So, grats, guys.
I'm serious. Make a boosted Greyhound/T70 replace
the Sherman/T-34 and make those REWARD units.
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I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.
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@Paciat
Maybe you misunderstood me. I said that the EARLY stugIII which wasnt produced as much as later versions ( stugIII ausfg G) because, like lord rommel said, von manstein wanted the stugs to be tank killers. and that the anti infantery Role is already taken by pnz3. So we could make an Arrangement and take Lord Rommels Magic word "reward unit". For example for any earlier light Tank because stugIII saw First Action in the war against the French in 1940. I totally agree with you that stugIII has to be included in both ways, because both were Important.
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Yea, StuGIII saw action against the French in 1940.
It was a short barrel, then. And the PzIII in those days
had a 37mm cannon.
That's why I said StuGIII should be available sooner,
although I wouldn't want it to be god-awesome 'so soon'.
Suggested a series of Nerfs culminating in something
a little deadlier.
...
But who cares anyways?
It won't be included. PzIII will be the main MBT,
and it'll be z PanzerIV-V that can be spammed MORE
than the Sherman/T34.
Who cares with history, right?
Your ostHeer won't be a historical representation.
- No other countries.
- No StuGIII
- No conversions.
- More German tanks than Russians/Americans.
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 08:08:36 AM
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.
---
Why did Germany make both, then?
Why have StuGIV and PzIV in Wehr, if they have same role?
They have different flavors, but they're not drastically
different even in Wehr.
The PzIII-N came *AFTER* the StuGIII. The StuGIII
was made way-earlier. Reason for PzIII-N is because
the 2 other tanks which had the infantry role (PzIV and
StuGIII were both turned into tank destroyers (long barrel).
Didn't know what to do with the remaining PzIII, so they
made short 75/AI role.
Now, this only makes sense *IF* PzIII is made inferior to
the PzIV (Which it won't apparently). So PzIII-J and pzIII-
N are basically PzIVH and PzIV-AI (PE). No need for StuGIII
short or long barrel, thus the idea of using it as a REWARD
UNIT.
... Which makes no sense from a historical point of view.
StuGIII only becomes a reward unit if the PzIII is buffed
accordingly. Out of historical proportions.
It's a Greyhound that kills Tigers, gentlemen.
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 08:49:01 AM
http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/Panzer_III (http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/Panzer_III)
This from RUSE!
However, as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed. The Panzer IV mounted the long barreled 7.5 cm KwK 40 gun and engaged in tank-to-tank battles.
In 1939 battles, these tanks will be the highest level of tank available for Germany, and so should be mass produced to make up for it's less powerful 37mm gun. In other eras, Panzer IIIs will become less effective as the game progresses, and should be replaced by more advanced tanks, such as Panzer IVs, Tigers, or Panthers.
---
Thank you for going against history, Lord Rommel :)
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
5700 PzIII produced (Excluding StuGIII conversions)
And 11,500 StuGIII were produced.
Take out the StuGIII from the equation, since they're
Reward Units and you've got
5700 PzIII against 75,000 T34/Shermans but fighting
1 vs 1 on the battlefield
instead of 5700+11500 (17,000)
Although, to be sure, PzIII have to be cheaper than
T34/Sherman, more numerous, and still be equivalent
(or Stronger!)(Quality, remember?)
Aouch has a swarm concept for the PzIII which assumes
large groups of PzIII.
...
With Germans who can't convert (but did!) against
Americans who can convert (but never did).
When the Klingon Battlecruisers?
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 09:00:28 AM
The Sherman Jumbo/Sherman 105, although I like the units,
are poorly balanced/thought out, as I discussed with
Black Bishop.
Conversions should be a choice, not a no-brainer.
Sherman Jumbo also has a poor place.
Sherman Jumbo should replace Crocodile (But with a cap?).
Thus giving other doctrines a heavy tank/Hv Crusher.
Sherman 105 should lose it's heavy Crush/Shovel and
replace the Callioppe as it's an artillery tank.
(I also think Sexton should replace Priest)
(And Priest also be potential for Callioppe)(It's american)
Right now, Sherman 105 is same cost as Crocodile,
but it can do everything the Crocodile does... and do it
better. a LOT better. I love the tank. I really, really do.
I even love the ghastly slow turret traverse (Realistic).
I just don't think it replaces the right unit, though.
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 09:30:16 AM
Pawel Pawlikowski:[1]
“ Both Natalie and Emily were extremely different and very original, which is a rare thing nowadays. They avoid the obvious, and are capable of playing complex and conflicting attitudes. Above all, they had energy, which is key for a movie. When I brought them together for a workshop, I could see them feeding off of each other well, and I knew that this was going to work.
Completely unrelated, but... it explains rather well that
which I was striving for. Something different, that can
bring something new. Not same old in a different skin.
For once.
Magic.
-
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.
they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.
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they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.
Exactly. The way I see it, the DEVs have three possibilities how to add in Pz3 and Stug3:
Easiest way is for sure the Reward-system.
Both "tanks" are similar yet different enough to add one of them as reward-unit. (Pz3 "J" as gap-filler between light and medium tanks, either AT or AI upgrade. Stug3 "A-E" as AI-"tank" later upgrade to "Ausf. G" = AT)
Next way is again from Lord Rommel, his unit-pool-suggestion. You can have both, however only one of them is buildable at the same time.
Third but the most difficult way, because it needs perfect balancing, is Loupblanc's idea of having first Pz3 and then Stug3. However the way he wants it now, with Pz3 weak as shit and Stug3 beginning as "Ausf. A" which is the same as Pz3 "Ausf. N" doesn't make any sense at all. Plus he desperately tries to enforce "realism", something about neither CoH or EF really bothered.
Therefore I think the DEVs will decide between one of Lord Rommel's suggestions, I tend to say it'll be the first option.
Or they'll surprise us with a fourth option, something nobody took yet into account. ;)
-
All of u can be sure that i want to see Pz III and Stug III as part of the Ostheer.
Last i can tell u that it was MrScruff's wish to see the StuG III in eastern front.
BUT the hole team had to decided - Ostheer is a team project.
All in all i hope that we - the ef team - will find a way to implement both tanks and i'm sure that there is a way to add both.
Hope we will be able to present u this way as fast as possible.
and @Loupblanc:
U can be sure that history is my love and so i try to find the best way to get the balance between a pc game ( here CoH EF ) and history.
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I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.
they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.
---
The StuGIV and the PanzerIV have the same role.
Do you suggest we take the PanzerIV out of Wehr, and
make it a reward unit for the StuGIV?
They DO have the same role.
- - And my PzIIIL42 - PzIIIL60 - StuGIIIF culmination
did offer something different. Especially with conversions.
Something new and unique. Which would have fit nicely
with PzII - Wespe - Marder2 conversions.
Take StuGIIIF away, and you have to buff the PzIII to
PzIV or better than PzIII status for balance's sake.
That's why StuGIIIF replaced PzIII you know. Because
PzIV had replaced it. And they needed something to do
with all those pesky PzIII still lying around.
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 05:09:07 PM
@Aouch :
Third but the most difficult way, because it needs perfect balancing, is Loupblanc's idea of having first Pz3 and then Stug3. However the way he wants it now, with Pz3 weak as shit and Stug3 beginning as "Ausf. A" which is the same as Pz3 "Ausf. N" doesn't make any sense at all. Plus he desperately tries to enforce "realism", something about neither CoH or EF really bothered
- There is a reason why Germany switched from PzIII
to PzIV. Take the PzIV away from OH, and you have to
fall back on the StuGIIIF. Take the StuGIIIF away, you
have to buff PzIII to PzIV levels, as Ouch wants.
(More numerous, earlier, cheaper, and 1-on-1 wins vs
T34/Sherman)
I also want American 75 to 76 conversions (Mass and
in the field, too!) taken away, as if Germany can't have
them, America certainly shouldn't have it.
- If OstHeer is to have any sense.
- It's easier to have PzIII into a real MBT if you take
away T34/Sherman/Pershing/IL2/ISU152, then PzIII can
truly be 'DA' tank.
Movies - Haven't you ever heard of continuity and
suspension of disbelief? It's like saying only the good
guys can hit things (on first shot, too)(from a moving
vehicle) while bad guys forever and eternally miss with
everything? In Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy, there
is just a scene in the end, where 80 some troopers
fire at close range with assault weapons and succeed
in missing with pretty much every shot (except one)
(which is non-fatal).
Works in movies, comedies, even.
Not so much in a strategy game.
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 05:19:30 PM
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.
they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.
- You can't have them that way.
** 1) Reward Unit. Reward units can't have upgrades.
So it would either have to be Stubby StuGIII or AT StuGIII.
Either way, it doesn't work.
** 2) As a pool unit one being exclusive to the other.
Might work. As long as they both have upgrades. But
there is one detail. One is much better at AT, and the
other is better at AI (Those machine guns).
I still prefer the PzIIIL42-PzIIIL60-StuGIIIF linear.
Because that's when the StuG became significantly
better than the PzIII.
Small detail. Earlier on, the PzIII was AT.
The StuG and the PanzerIV were the anti infantry tanks.
Then roles were switched around.
-
Loupblance...
i cant understand u any more ???
Panzer III as main tank of an Ostheer could work. Till 1943 Panzer III was the main tank of german Panzer-Divisionen. A trained Pz III crew was able to fight against a T-34 tank. On paper T-34 is better than Pz III but there some point which sap the datas of the T-34 ( e.g. T-34 tanks are nearly blind when command copula and driver door were closed ).
Pz III showed in Italy and in Normandy that it could deal with Sherman tanks, too.
So out of historical view i would say a Pz III is acceptable.
But remember CoH is a computer game which cant simulate the hole reality. So when a real Pz III could destroy a T-34 or a Sherman why should a Ostheer Pz III cant do this? Okay. Perhaps not in a ingame 1on1 situation but perhaps 2 or 3 PzIII could deal with armour like T-34 or Sherman or Cromwell.
And in combination with StuG III there is an other scenario possible; Pz III as main tank fight against enemy's armour. StuG III with a long barreled 7,5cm gun positions behind a group of Pz III as main tank hunter. Enemy's fire could concentrate on Pz III and StuG III could shot down tank by tank ;)
Everything is possible! CoH is a game :D
-
Small detail. Earlier on, the PzIII was AT.
The StuG and the PanzerIV were the anti infantry tanks.
Then roles were switched around.
Thats exactly what I want ingame. maybe stugIII short barreled and pzIII L42 appearing nearly at same time, maybe with a research from amroured command, and that first stugIII deals with infantry and pzIII with light vehicles/tanks, up to T70/T90 or M8 and Stuart. Then, to raise firepower and effectivity, stugIII goes for killing tanks with the long barreled gun and pzIII is not that important anymore, except of killing infantry with the short barelled gun of ausf. N, so L24. So its historical correct and everyone has what he wants. But will pzIII and stugIII be the heaviest tanks buildable? or will there be a tiger or another tank already existing?
-
Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II ;)
-
@Lord Rommel
That's why I asked ;D
Are there any plans by the devs to include a bigger tank?
-
Mmm I Vote for Battlegroup Call Ins!
Buildable Tigers sound OP and we have enough Panther for a lifetime :P
-
@Lord Rommel :
My idea was, essentially,
PzIIIL42 as StuGIV
PzIIIL60 as PzIV / PzIIIL24(75) as FlakPanzer
StuGIIIF as Panther. Equivalencies/Roles, I said.
(Small note: Notice FlakPanzer doesn't have skirts)
If you take away StuGIIIF, then you need to buff PzIII to
Panther level. Which is what Aouch wants.
* 2-3 PzIII killing T34/Sherman with numerical superiority.
Explain to me how 5700 tanks overwhelm 75,000 tanks with
their numerical superiority?
* PzIII/StuGIIIF combos. Yes. EXACTLY what I want.
* Sure, StuGIIIF can deal with IS2, with First Strike/
Ambush. It would definitively give it a reason for being.
No, I don't propose to make it uber ;) Just give it enough
flaws to justify giving it nice Pros. Also, I'd make it a
weaker Marder/StuGIV kinda combo. Similar to SU85/100.
Keeping it in the AT role would justify keeping PzIII around.
** Lord Rommel : Oh, I know T34 is better on paper,
but Poor training (most crews couldn't even read), and
horrible turret ergonomics (PzIII - 3 people in turret,
T34 (early) 2 people in turret) - PzIII crew had experience,
T34 crew usually didn't (till late in war). But they still
had HUGE HUGE advantage in production. Somewhere,
that ought to show somewhere.
Of course PzIII can work as OstHeer MBT, but please
give it a different flavor than PzIV.
I suggested giving it 8 pop/Tank (To keep numbers down)
Fatal Sidegrades (They gain something with a flaw)
(L60 can't IF and L24 can't AT)
Tungsten shots (expensive but balances things) to
balance having LOWER HEALTH THAN PzIV.
Skirts upgrade is nice too.
The Stuart was an example. But I was actually thinking
around StuGIV health.
PzIII being able to have infantry follow/cover is nice, too.
StuGIII being needed for consistant tank fighting keeps
PzIII from overwhelming the map with sheer superiority.
You heavily risk giving OstHeer a Russian 'feel'
(Tons of Units, but better units, with Vet). Doesn't balance.
@Ryousan :
Oh, I agree with Battlegroup call-ins. I wanted the Soviets
to have a PE_Dual Panther similar call-in (with 2 T34, with
2 squads)(Upgradeable from 1 T34 + 1 squad). I also agree
that we have enough Panthers for a lifetime, as well.
And yea, buildable Tigers sounds very op.
@Maxiking6 :
Bigger tank. Well Elefant, for starts.
Nashorn, as well (Marder4 kinda).
Lord Rommel :
Have StuGIIIF deal with Russian JS-2.
Give Germans a 'feel'.
-
I think I'll have to agree with Lord Rommel forever. ;)
Everytime he says something, it's just right.
Panzer III as main tank of an Ostheer could work. Till 1943 Panzer III was the main tank of german Panzer-Divisionen. A trained Pz III crew was able to fight against a T-34 tank. On paper T-34 is better than Pz III but there some point which sap the datas of the T-34 ( e.g. T-34 tanks are nearly blind when command copula and driver door were closed ).
Pz III showed in Italy and in Normandy that it could deal with Sherman tanks, too.
So out of historical view i would say a Pz III is acceptable.
Exactly. But that's a fact some people here don't want to hear. :)
But remember CoH is a computer game which cant simulate the hole reality. So when a real Pz III could destroy a T-34 or a Sherman why should a Ostheer Pz III cant do this? Okay. Perhaps not in a ingame 1on1 situation but perhaps 2 or 3 PzIII could deal with armour like T-34 or Sherman or Cromwell.
And in combination with StuG III there is an other scenario possible; Pz III as main tank fight against enemy's armour. StuG III with a long barreled 7,5cm gun positions behind a group of Pz III as main tank hunter. Enemy's fire could concentrate on Pz III and StuG III could shot down tank by tank ;)
That's actually exactly the situation I would like to see in CoH. 8)
Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II
Another point here, which is just right.
Whenever Loupblanc comes with his "Remove all tanks and make Pz3 kill IS-2, because it has to be so, otherwise a Pz3 won't function"-argument, he seems to completely forget that Pz3 and Stug3 will perhaps be not the only tanks of the Ostheer. ;)
(Sorry, but that's true. I know I can be an asshole sometimes...)
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 06:41:09 PM
If you take away StuGIIIF, then you need to buff PzIII to
Panther level. Which is what Aouch wants.
I'll try and say it a last time:
I want Pz3 J (L/42) as gap-filler between Stuart and Sherman.
Give them the British-slow-movement-con to prevent early rush and enforce "move as group"-tactic.
Pz3 J1 as counter for Sherman75 and T-34/76. Sure, Panther can also deal with those, but Pz3 can't deal with /85. So sorry, I don't get your argument. ???
* 2-3 PzIII killing T34/Sherman with numerical superiority.
Explain to me how 5700 tanks overwhelm 75,000 tanks with
their numerical superiority?
* PzIII/StuGIIIF combos. Yes. EXACTLY what I want.
Soviets hadn't many T-34 in 1942. That's when the Pz3 was on the battlefield. T-34 were produced till 1945. Pz3 weren't.
So you can't compare numbers. (Same for Sherman BTW!)
Also, Germans had different tank-tactics than Allies. Pz3 were used as armored spearhead, while Allies normally supported their infantry with tanks, therefore Pz3 could take out enemy tanks because they were actually more. (In that situation).
Later, Stug3/Pz3 combo like Lord Rommel suggested is the way to go. (I still think we've some ideas in common, Loup ;) )
Lord Rommel :
Have StuGIIIF deal with Russian JS-2.
Give Germans a 'feel'.
Same here. Stug3 shouldn't deal with IS-2 alone, like Pz3 shouldn't deal with T-34 alone. :)
-
@Aouch : Sigh. Boot licking Lord Rommel's posts
saying something is right because he said it...
Lord Rommel's comments CONTRADICT one another :p
- You can't have StuGIIIF as a REWARD unit (which you
agreed to), (It won't be able to upgrade)(And it means
PzIII has to take over it's AT role).
- If PanzerIII and StuGIIIF appear in same force, then
it's not a reward unit :p
- I know PzIIIL60 can kill T34/Sherman. But how do you
represent the PzIV replaced the PzIII as a MBT?
- What won't work is you want PzIII to be MORE numerous
than T34/Sherman *AND* to kill them 1-on-1. That 'feel'
should be Russian/American tanks.
You are giving PzIII the 'Spam'/Better production of
Americans/Russians *WITH* German better quality.
Can't you see how that makes no sense?
I never said a PzIII couldn't destroy a T34/Sherman.
What I mean is that while a PzIII can destroy a T34/
Sherman, it'll have trouble when it's facing 3-4 T34
/Shermans. Which is where the Uber Tiger tanks come in.
If you want an alternative to Tiger/Panther, then
StuGIIIF comes in.
Makes for more interesting play.
And StuGIII *IS MOST NUMEROUS GERMAN TANK OF WAR*
--------------
* Remove conversions from Germans, give conversions to
America (75 to 76mm) makes no sense. Not historical.
* Making StuGIII a reward unit is like making T34/Sherman
a Reward Unit.
* Last I checked, I didn't know PzIII had numerical
superiority against StuGIII. Especially late-war (Battle
of France, maybe)(Never after)
* T34/Sherman was enough of an issue for PzIII that
they SWITCHED to the PzIV/StuGIIIF for AT duty. How
do you propose to demonstrate that?
--
* Other tanks will be Marder4 (Nashorn) a Tiger-Level
AT tank (Weak armor, Flak88 Range). Should be doctrinal.
(And Capped). And move like a Hummel.
* And Elefant (also doctrinal)
--
* Maybe Panther and Tigers, too.
(But then why not put PanzerIV?) = You've got Wehr 1.5
-
Sorry, Loup. I didn't know that reward-units couldn't be upgraded. Maybe I played too much CoH with PE's Stubby since I can't have this lovely little French Hotchkiss tank.
About the production-numbers: Read my post above yours.
Historical is also a thing I'll say the last time: Lord Rommel being an historian himself does actually say:
Everything is possible! CoH is a game
In the end I don't mind what the DEVs add in which way. I just want an Ostheer which is fun to play, has a new gameplay-fealing, new units and doesn't rely solely on Stugs.
-
@Aouch :
You specifically said you wanted PzIIIL60+tungsten
to kill T34/85 and Sherman76. 1-on-1 AND have numerical
superiority.
- You can't have PzIII num superiority AND have StuGIII
(Then you'd have 6 to 1)
- Lord Rommel said he didn't want PzIII and StugIII together.
Then he said they could fight together. You can't agree to
both and still make sense.
-------
- As for PzIII/German armored spearheads.
Well, allies used tank armies too for armored spearheads.
COH is 1944-1945. Not 1941-1942. Also, the basic idea
is REGIONAL superiority. Which is a basic German Tenet.
And one I completely agree with. But you can't make a
game where the Germans 'are always at their best'.
That came at a cost : Of no German tanks elsewehre.
(Which is what StuG were for, actually. They were
part of Artillery corps)(!!!!) to offer tanks when 'tank
armies' were not present. (StuG are SPG, not Tanks).
So, essentially, you are saying that you want OstHeer
to always be 'the armored spearhead' ;) (At their best,
all the time). Doesn't work.
Although I will say this :
FINE. Make it a doctrinal tree, then. That way, if you
really want to be 'The Armored regional superiority'
OstHeer, you should give up something for it (aka :
a Doctrinal Tree). Your OstHeer idea has no flaws.
It's all : My idea is very good. I got 16 Queens. And
other has 16 pawns. This will be fun :)
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 06:56:58 PM
Sorry, Loup. I didn't know that reward-units couldn't be upgraded. Maybe I played too much CoH with PE's Stubby since I can't have this lovely little French Hotchkiss tank.
About the production-numbers: Read my post above yours.
Historical is also a thing I'll say the last time: Lord Rommel being an historian himself does actually say:
Everything is possible! CoH is a game
In the end I don't mind what the DEVs add in which way. I just want an Ostheer which is fun to play, has a new gameplay-fealing, new units and doesn't rely solely on Stugs.
- I really thought Reward Units can't have upgrades...
Then you said it : Hotchkiss tank - which has 2 upgrades :
Stuka and long barrel upgrade. Insert foot in mouth.
I'm the one giving the apology here.
- I never asked for OstHeer to rely solely on StuGs.
I like the PzIII, and like having it included in OstHeer.
I just don't think it should be equal of PzIV/T34/Sherman.
(Or even as numerous, ack!)
Post Merge: September 15, 2010, 07:00:17 PM
Bad example, here, but you'll get my point, I hope.
It's like saying America has best Karateka fighters because
they have Chuck Norris.
So then allow America faction to have 'buildable'/'trainable'
Chuck Norris with no cap. They're all chuck Norris. And USA
should have better melee units because they Chuck Norris.
And, no, Chuck Norris can't be killed, then neither should his
clones be killable. They are THAT bad-ass.
Would you find playing AGAINST chuck-Norris america
fun in the least? But why? I'd think it's nice and fun for
me to play Chuck-Norris america against yours
(with no historical basis, either - hey, it's just a game).
-
* Making StuGIII a reward unit is like making T34/Sherman
a Reward Unit.
Loup as far as I know 88s were used extensevely, still are Doctrine Specific ;)
- What won't work is you want PzIII to be MORE numerous
than T34/Sherman *AND* to kill them 1-on-1. That 'feel'
should be Russian/American tanks.
If Coh was a campaign scale game that would a good argument, but CoH is Battle Scale. The soviets over streched their advance in some ocassions which allowed the Panzer Divisions to overwelm them with more tanks, Im mistaken?
But putting that aside, I think what Lord Rommel proposed was to best the allied tanks with coordination rather than with numbers.
If you want an alternative to Tiger/Panther, then
StuGIIIF comes in.
Loup, what fails in that proposal is that StugIII doesnt win in 1 on 1 against an ISU-152 :P even with Ambush, First Strike, Marder Lockdown or whatever. Is kinda like wanting a hetzer to overpower a Pershing.
In that sense I have to agree with Auch, PzIII could be the equivalent of StugIV, StugIII-PzIV, and a Uber-Tank. That without losing flavor
-
* Making StuGIII a reward unit is like making T34/Sherman
a Reward Unit.
Loup as far as I know 88s were used extensevely, still are Doctrine Specific ;)
** Then Sherman/T34 should be doctrine specific ;)
- What won't work is you want PzIII to be MORE numerous
than T34/Sherman *AND* to kill them 1-on-1. That 'feel'
should be Russian/American tanks.
If Coh was a campaign scale game that would a good argument, but CoH is Battle Scale. The soviets over streched their advance in some ocassions which allowed the Panzer Divisions to overwelm them with more tanks, Im mistaken?
** So if Chuck Norris can uni-punch someone dead,
that should always be the case when Americans fight
Germans, I'm mistaken?
But putting that aside, I think what Lord Rommel proposed was to best the allied tanks with coordination rather than with numbers.
- Oh, I AM TOTALLY for that. Winning by superior
micro than by spam.
If you want an alternative to Tiger/Panther, then
StuGIIIF comes in.
Loup, what fails in that proposal is that StugIII doesnt win in 1 on 1 against an ISU-152 :P even with Ambush, First Strike, Marder Lockdown or whatever. Is kinda like wanting a hetzer to overpower a Pershing.
- Actually, the counter to the ISU-152 (Doctrine unit)
is the Elefant (doctrine unit). I win :)
- Hetzer no cap. Pershing has cap. I win :)
- PE-AT has JagPanther for Pershing. I win :)
In that sense I have to agree with Auch, PzIII could be the equivalent of StugIV, StugIII-PzIV, and a Uber-Tank. That without losing flavor
- Actually, I'm the one who said that :)
-
EF doesn't take place in a specific period of time.
Therefore you can't compare the numbers of Pz3 which were built in the early war-time to the numbers of Shermans and T-34 which were produced all over the war-time.
Same for Stug3. Production-numbers raised significantly over the whole war-time, therefore it's unfair to compare those numbers.
- What won't work is you want PzIII to be MORE numerous
than T34/Sherman *AND* to kill them 1-on-1. That 'feel'
should be Russian/American tanks.
Brits also don't rely on "spamming" tanks, additionally their tanks are rather "weak". Still Commonwealth can win.
Therefore USSR/USA "spams", Brits don't.
WH and PE don't spam tanks, OH ? .
However, I rather meant it the way Ryousan put it:
But putting that aside, I think what Lord Rommel proposed was to best the allied tanks with coordination rather than with numbers.
Some more things:
At least to me it seems that Lord Rommel just give suggestions and don't "want something". Then I just said I like that idea, because I thought that could work for the OH.
What's so wrong with liking different concepts?
You specifically said you wanted PzIIIL60+tungsten
to kill T34/85 and Sherman76. 1-on-1 AND have numerical
superiority.
- You can't have PzIII num superiority AND have StuGIII
(Then you'd have 6 to 1)
I want L/60 with tungsten having a chance against T-34/85 and Sherm76. I don't want them to drive towards an enemy tank, fire a tungsten-round, enemy tank blows up and Pz3 drives by without taking damage.
Apparently, that's how you think I want it. However, that's not the case.
I also don't want them to be more common than other tanks.
My concept was to give them the British-movement-con you suggested, therefore they are forced to move in groups.
However, this doesn't mean that you have 15 tanks driving in groups of 3-4 all over the battlefield but instead you have only one group.
This Panzerrudel can't be everywhere, BUT where it is, it's usually numerical superior.
Therefore the rest of the frontline can't have tanksupport but instead has to rely on Stugs (like you said, Stugs were the tanks of the infantry! :) Therefore the idea of Stugs being a mobile cover for inf), PaKs or improvised AT-tactics.
-
** Then Sherman/T34 should be doctrine specific ;)
My Point being if they made the StugIII doctrine specific, or reward unit. no hard feelings about it.
** So if Chuck Norris can uni-punch someone dead,
that should always be the case when Americans fight
Germans, I'm mistaken?
Dont Understanding what you tried to say ???
- Oh, I AM TOTALLY for that. Winning by superior
micro than by spam.
Nice to see we can agree in some things :)
- Actually, the counter to the ISU-152 (Doctrine unit)
is the Elefant (doctrine unit). I win :)
- Hetzer no cap. Pershing has cap. I win :)
- PE-AT has JagPanther for Pershing. I win :)
-Let supose for a second that not all the Ostheer doctrines have Uber tanks. I win :)
-Stug will have cap ::). I Win :P?. Yet Hetzer bad example.
-Then what has Ostheer for Pershing? ::). Let call it a draw
- Actually, I'm the one who said that :)
Did you? I neeed new glasses :'(
-
@Ryousan :
-
If they make StuGIII doctrine specific, they have to
make T34/Sherman/Panzer4 doctrine specific. If a tank
ought to be Doctrine-specific, it'd be more PzIII than
StuGIII, don't you see?
-
Re: Chuch Norris Spam.
In game terms, if you change all the Zerglings to Uberlisks
(Ultralisks) with a 4vs1 ratio advantage and 3vs1 quality
advantage... it just doesn't add up.
-
German winning by quality, not spam.
: Well, yea. But a PzIII that is superior to *AND*
numerically superior to T34/Sherman doesn't add up.
-
Re: I win, I win, I win.
Not really. If don't have Elefant, they have Nashorn.
Ifnot they have FPAK88. Either way, there will be
something uber for each OstHeer tree to deal with
ISU152. Pesides, Multiple M10s and AT57+Tungsten
can kill King Tigers. So it's not an issue. Just use
StuGIII and Marders. Problem fixed.
- StuG will have a cap.
: When T34/Sherman have a cap.
When crocodile/PanzerFlak has a cap.
- Hetzer only has a cap because AI is stupid.
(Does it?)
- Pershing is 1 doctrine unit of 1 doctrine tree.
OstHeer has Elefant. Of 1 doctrine tree. It balances out.
- Yes, I'm the one you suggested it.
You can't take my own suggestion and turn it against me.
It would say that my idea is bad because I said it.
But if someone said sae thing, then it's good.
It's like Aouch said : Whatever Lord Rommel says it's
amazing best idea (Despite he offering conflicting ideas).
-
Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II ;)
i was thinking about a real tankhunter like either marder II or nashorn to deal with heavier tanks.
-
Re: Chuch Norris Spam.
In game terms, if you change all the Zerglings to Uberlisks
(Ultralisks) with a 4vs1 ratio advantage and 3vs1 quality
advantage... it just doesn't add up.
Point Noted.
There will be Something uber for each OstHeer tree to deal with
ISU152
Well that is not entirely true, try to kill an ISU while being Scorched Earth PE Commander, Yeah Marder is one solution. But Stug is not Marder. And heavily depends on how the Stug will be represented. Yet, Point Noted.
- Pershing is 1 doctrine unit of 1 doctrine tree.
OstHeer has Elefant. Of 1 doctrine tree. It balances out
Alright, I need to quote Lord Rommel in this one
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II ;)
A third tank is needed, you cant fix all with Stug Spam ::). Yet, Point Noted.
- Yes, I'm the one you suggested it.
You can't take my own suggestion and turn it against me.
It would say that my idea is bad because I said it.
I apologise for that. Yet, never said that your idea was bad.
-
Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II ;)
i was thinking about a real tankhunter like either marder II or nashorn to deal with heavier tanks.
- OstHeer will have both Marder2 and NashHorn (Marder4).
So it's not an issue.
Marde2 buildable, Nashhorn doctrine 'tiger' call-in.
-
Who said that Ostheer get Marder II and/or Nashorn Oo
And why do u call Nashorn Marder IV...
Loupblance...u confuse me more and more :-[
-
- OstHeer will have both Marder2 and NashHorn (Marder4).
So it's not an issue.
Marde2 buildable, Nashhorn doctrine 'tiger' call-in.
I don't think that'll happen. Marder 2, OK. But Nashorn (btw, it was never called Marder 4, therefore you shouldn't call it Marder 4. It was Nashorn, Panzerjäger "Nashorn", SdKfz. 164 or "Hornisse". But never Marder 4, not even to show it was something like the Marder-tankhunters, because it wasn't) would be very, very difficult to balance out to fill the narrow gap between Marder and Elefant.
I would even go that far and say either Pz3 and Stug3 are Reward-dependent (either Pz or Stug) or Pz3 is MTB and Stug3 and Marder2 are Reward-dependent (either Stug or Marder).
Also, now you've got Ryousan, you completely forgot commenting my main statement which could perhaps help you understand my point of view on the whole "Pz3/Stug3"-story. :'(
My concept was to give them the British-movement-con you suggested, therefore they are forced to move in groups.
However, this doesn't mean that you have 15 tanks driving in groups of 3-4 all over the battlefield but instead you have only one group of 3-4 Pz3.
This Panzerrudel can't be everywhere, BUT where it is, it's usually numerical superior.
Therefore the rest of the frontline can't have tanksupport but instead has to rely on Stugs (like you said, Stugs were the tanks of the infantry! Therefore the idea of Stugs being a mobile cover for inf), PaKs or improvised AT-tactics.
-
Stugs were the tanks of the infantry! Therefore the idea of Stugs being a mobile cover for inf), PaKs or improvised AT-tactics.
+1 :)
-
Re: Chuch Norris Spam.
In game terms, if you change all the Zerglings to Uberlisks
(Ultralisks) with a 4vs1 ratio advantage and 3vs1 quality
advantage... it just doesn't add up.
Point Noted.
- Thank you. So why be for PanzerIII that are more
numerous AND superior to T34/Sherman?
(5700 to 75000)
There will be Something uber for each OstHeer tree to deal with
ISU152
Well that is not entirely true, try to kill an ISU while being Scorched Earth PE Commander, Yeah Marder is one solution. But Stug is not Marder. And heavily depends on how the Stug will be represented. Yet, Point Noted.
- Scorched Earth PE commander. Panther+Marder+
Sector Artillery + Troop Bazooka/AT grenades. Against
a SINGLE ISU152 ? Nooo problem.
- StuGIIIF is noted AT tank. With Ambush/First Strike,
it could work as an armored weak Marder with more
resilience Similar to a Hetzer.
- Pershing is 1 doctrine unit of 1 doctrine tree.
OstHeer has Elefant. Of 1 doctrine tree. It balances out
Alright, I need to quote Lord Rommel in this one
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II ;)
A third tank is needed, you cant fix all with Stug Spam ::). Yet, Point Noted.
- Of course you can deal with Russian JS-2 with StuG3F.
Plus, it gives it perfect reason for why it's needed.
M10 can kill King Tiger. Why can't StuG3F kill JS-2 ?
Throw in Marders to the mix, problem fixed.
- Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).
- Yes, I'm the one you suggested it.
You can't take my own suggestion and turn it against me.
It would say that my idea is bad because I said it.
I apologise for that. Yet, never said that your idea was bad.
- Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p
----
@ Lord Rommel :
I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to
be in OstHeer. As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.
The Nashorn is a Panzer4 conversion, so I call it Marder4.
Just like the Marder3 is a conversion of PzIII - Oh, wait,
it's a conversion of Pz(38)t, nevermind. Lol.
But Marder2 would explain why there won't be StuGIII in
OstHeer, and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther, as
Aouch demanded.
- You confuse me more and more.
: Learn French ;)
@ Aouch :
- If Pz2/Wespe is in, why shouldn't be Marder2 ?
- I'm not german. So I'll never call it :
Panzerjäger "Nashorn", SdKfz. 164 or "Hornisse".
As Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausführung H (‘Panzer VI version H’, abbreviated PzKpfw VI Ausf. H), but the tank was redesignated as PzKpfw VI Ausf. E ... I'll call it Rhino, or Marder4 at worse.
Nashorn is the best I'll call it. As long as we both know we're
talking about the same tank, no problem.
- NAshorn won't be in same Doctrine as Elefant. It's a mobile
PAK88 in game terms with the mobility of a Hummel.
And, yes, it'll be in OstHeer.
- How about making StuG3 and Marder2 the main tanks
of OstHeer, and have PzIII as reward unit? ;) I doubt you'd
agree. Thus my whole point.
- Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
PzIII that kill IS-2.
- Oh, I said that StuG were the infantry support
(They're part of Artillery-corps, I said), not Panzer-Corps.
Soooo... yea, in that context, StuGIII and PzIII could be
reward unit to each other.
I'd like the mass PzIII to be a doctrine, not general.
Or else, why not say, Allies forever have tons of tanks,
and Germans never have any? (German tank armies are
elsewhere). It can't be 100% 'Today, the elite german
spearhead shows up) :p
Soviets and Americans also had Tank armies.
The only army who had no tank army was... France.
Believed to have the largest, most modern, and best
equipped army in the world in those days
(But no tank army).
We saw what happenned to THEM.
- Small note :
General DeGaulle kept screaming for tank armies
for years. Got ignored. Finally, in frustration, he kidnapped
some 20+ tanks (Don't know how much) and send them on
a counterattack against the Germans. He was the only one
who was able to hurt Germans at ALL.
: They wanted to courtmarshal him for disobeying orders :p
According to French Tank doctrine, tanks were mobile
pillboxes that accompanied Infantry.
@Ryousan :
StuGS being infantry-tanks. Oh, I'm totally for that too.
-
You know what Loupblanc? I'm done with you and your arguments.
I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to be in OstHeer.
Link or it never happened.
As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.
Ah. Following your argumentation, it's logical to have StuIG 33B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz_33B) in the OH because there will be Pz3. ::)
and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther
- Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
PzIII that kill IS-2
Sorry for being a bit rude, but don't you notice you're making a fool out of yourself?
I've stated infinite times that I want Stugs and don't want Pz3 being an uber-tank which is four times more powerfull, twice as common and half the price of T-34.
Despite I said that countless times, you continue to use that phrase over and over again. >:(
Now back to topic:
I think everything was said in this thread, nothing new comes. Only the same old "discussion" which goes over 3 pages back.
-
You know what Loupblanc? I'm done with you and your arguments.
I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to be in OstHeer.
Link or it never happened.
- Fine. There will be *NO* Nashorn in the Ostheer.
Because you said so. Now Lord Rommel can't add it
to the OstHeer. Are you satisfied?
As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.
Ah. Following your argumentation, it's logical to have StuIG 33B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz_33B) in the OH because there will be Pz3. ::)
- Never heard of StuIG 33B before?? I'm learning something
new. Well, it seems like a very small run tank.
Production history
Designer Alkett
Designed 1941-2
Manufacturer Alkett
Produced 1942
Number built 24
Plus, it'S 1941-1942 (5 left in 1944)
Guess you'd like it spammable/uncapped? ;)
and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther
- Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
PzIII that kill IS-2
Sorry for being a bit rude, but don't you notice you're making a fool out of yourself?
I've stated infinite times that I want Stugs and don't want Pz3 being an uber-tank which is four times more powerfull, twice as common and half the price of T-34.
Despite I said that countless times, you continue to use that phrase over and over again. >:(
- Topic on table is removing StuGIII (Putting is as a
Reward unit) which would rebalance the PzIII as an uber
tank. Well not 4x more powerful. Maybe 1.5 vs 1 T34,
at 60% price, with a ratio of 3 on 1.
Now back to topic:
I think everything was said in this thread, nothing new comes. Only the same old "discussion" which goes over 3 pages back.
Well, actually, yes. Some things did come out of it.
Making StuGIII a reward unit for PzIII. (But capped)
(With no cap on PzIII).
No Nashorn. (Absolutely not in OstHeer)
MarderII as the AT unit (Thus no need for StuGIII)
with Buffed/cheap/numerous/powerful PzIII. (Who comes
early).
-
Je ne veux pas ecrire francais ici :P
About Nashorn: Anyone had said that Ostheer get Marder II or Nashorn. This are community rumours ;)
-
@Loupblanc
You should calm down pal, you're spaming ideas that already presented yourself(overall) pages before. Lord Rommel just wrote some options for the ostheer and of course, it contradicts each other because are different options.
You read him, he wants to implement the Stug if possible without the reward system, you don't need to defend your point like this.
You have to reflect what devs can do and why they are doing it. I think you're overreacting. This won't help your suggestions and probably most people could have a bad opinion about you because of how you defend your point.
-
@Lord Rommel :
- Et pourquoi ne veux-tu pas écrire en Francais ici?
Ca serait rigolo, et on pourrait peut-etre se comprendre
pour une fois ;) Ca ferait différent, et ca serait fort
enrichissant ;)
@BlackBishop :
- Yea but it pisses me off that Aouch says oh yes,
that is the best idea yet! You are so right! Even if
ideas contradict each other. If Lord Rommel declared
the introduction of Japanese Units in OstHeer (He
won't, but for argument's sake) I bet Aouch would
say oh yes! This is your best idea yet, let's do it! :p
- I have a very good idea of what the mods can or
can't do. Been around modding communities for a few
years, namely Merciless Creations (BF1942) and Forgotten
Hope group, under various names. I been playing video
games for awhile, namely just about everything WW2-
related, and have been paying attention to COH_EF
since it began. Fine, I'm passionnate, and opiniated, and
outspoken.
Is it too much to ask for something that is Historical,
balanced, different yet has a fun, but distinct feel?
Well, yes ;) But, still.
I recall when they said no to Finn StuG/captured T34's.
And Italy and Romanian and... saying there were too many
German units still unrevealed. And yes, often, there has
been quite a bit of talk about excluding the StuGIII.
It can't be a doctrine unit, it can't be a call-in, it has
to be a refit, or buildable.
I guess I'm just sad they shoot down any and every
interesting idea that fits well and is balanced, in favor
of Uber and numerous German tanks that were the
exception, not the rule.
And a thousand apologies, I know I do not express myself
very well, at times. I'd like to see you try it in French ;)
-
Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:
1) I want Stug3.
2) I want Pz3.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
(Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
-> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
(To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing
Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.
Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J1 (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".
-
Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).
My bad, didnt express myself correctly. I meant a HEAVY OPTION. Which can be a Tankdestroyer, a Battlegroup or sorts. Tank are not a must
- Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p
Nope, Just didnt agree with some of them.
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
I vote for a heavy buildable. In addition to the ones that will be doctrine specific.
-
Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
- $#!(**$??
Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:
1) I want Stug3.
* Me too.
2) I want Pz3.
* Me too.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
* Me too.
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
(Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
* Ok, I agree, but there is something I hadn't understood.
I only wanted the speed limitation to prevent early rape,
due to other faction not having AT yet. You want to keep
it PE-Infantry style blob style as a CON to get a 'PRO'
That of buffing the rather 'weak' MTB to decent levels.
I hadn't understood that. In fact, I even wanted to
limit to 2, and/or include the StuGIII to remove the con.
and/or for further upgrades to remove this con. But you
kept insisting on it, and I couldn't understand why.
Essentially, you were saying that if you take the time
to build a Panzer Armored Fist, it should behave like one.
While I understood that you were saying that all German
Panzers should be uber AND more numberous, because
it's what would be fun. Now, that's completely different.
I still think StuGIII should count as a PzIII towards
remove this con, then. I think we are in agreement
(3 PzIII, or 2x PzIII and 1x StuGIII for example)
* Actually, now that I understand it better, I am
totally for it. Perfect for trapping Panzer armies if
they lose too many units in a 'spear', too. It's a
substantial con, that warrants a sizeable PRO I can
agree to.
5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
-> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
(To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
* Me too.
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing
* Me too.
Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.
* That's not what I understood. I understood that German
should have 3 PzIII by the time Soviets come out with their
first T34, and that PzIII should win 1-on-1. 'Because
Germans are Uber'. / Do you understand my reaction now?
Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J1 (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
* Yes.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
* Yes.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
* Yes.
* Dumb, not Dump :)
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.
* Oh, this I like.
* Actually, I'll even agree extra, because the
StuGIII was part of the Artillerie korps, not the
Panzer Korp.
* Didn't know the Pool system.
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
* Well, er... duh ;) Of course.
Panther/Tiger/NashHorn/JagPanther lots of candidates.
I shudder at the thought of PzIII as heaviest tank :p
And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".
* Aouch wants most of wha was linked above in this post.
I can prove it :D
Post Merge: September 16, 2010, 12:01:49 AM
Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).
My bad, didnt express myself correctly. I meant a HEAVY OPTION. Which can be a Tankdestroyer, a Battlegroup or sorts. Tank are not a must
- Well, every faction/doctrine has a game winner power.
(Tiger, King Tiger, V1, Pershing, God of War, IL2, etc)
- Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p
Nope, Just didnt agree with some of them.
- You don't agree with any of them :p
- I'll prove it, too, by saying OstHeer should have PzIII.
You won't be able to control yourself ;) I can prove it!!
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
I vote for a heavy buildable. In addition to the ones that will be doctrine specific.
- Hmm... so you want OstHeer to have a JS-2.
Wehr have Panther.
PE have Panther.
Hmm. Americans have Sherman76, Brits have
Firefly (Non-doctrinal, we said)(Churchill don't count).
Should OstHeer ALSO have Panthers, or do you think
they should have default buildable Tigers?
(I think soviets should have an upgradeable non
- doctrine T34 call-in)(Up to 2x T3485+2x Strelsky
squads). Eh.
Ok, you said not necessarily Tanks.
What do you propose?
-
Now I'm happy that we understand each other. :)
I'm sorry if I write some of my posts in a way, which could be easily misinterpreted. After all, English isn't my native language either. ;)
I'll just say something further to make sure everything is clear.
You want to keep it PE-Infantry style blob style as a CON to get a 'PRO'.
That of buffing the rather 'weak' MTB to decent levels.
I don't know what exactly you mean, but I don't want a group of Pz3 gaining any advantages. They just lose a disadvantage this way. OK, maybe PE-style vet-sharing, but not making them deal more dmg or something alongside these lines. :)
Stug3 counting as Panzer to remove this con is just fine.
* That's not what I understood. I understood that German
should have 3 PzIII by the time Soviets come out with their
first T34, and that PzIII should win 1-on-1. 'Because
Germans are Uber'. / Do you understand my reaction now?
Oh. Now I really understand why you reacted like that. ;D
To be a bit more accurate, I actually thought about that:
The first Pz3 "J" (L/42) arrives before the first T-34 and a bit after T-70 or Stuart. However, its use is very limited due to its slow movement in ET. The second Pz3 should arrive about the same time as the first T-34. Therefore the both Panzer still have a slight con but however are able to take out the T-34 if on own territory or better micro'ed.
When the third Pz3 arrives, which enables the OH to drive a first attack towards enemy lines, the second T-34 is being made/already drove out of factory.
After that third Pz3 (if you only produce Pz3 in that time), assuming we're talking about the Pz3-Stug-upgrade-system, the first Stug3 is being built to counter effectively the T-34, since Pz3 won't be able to stand a chance if engaged in a 3v3-situation.
Again, I'm really glad we can understand each other.
I know that we've two different opinions about the whole thing, but I accept your ideas and you accept my thinking. :)
Great!
-
@Aouch :
- We both converse in a language which is neither mine
or your native language (Although, to be fair, I was born
in Scotland, but... brogue is still different). Lol
How could we *NOT* expect misunderstandings?
* SNAFU -Situation normal : All fucked up.
- PzIII blob con/pro.
Hmm, well, getting a pro, or losing a con. Either way,
it's an operational improvement. But we're fencing (swords
play term)(or dancing) with details. Lol. But, fine.
I'd actually be willing to let you get away with a genuine
PRO, if you're willing to let this CON hamper you.
- Well... yea. I don't just explode and turn nasty for
no reason, you know. Now you really understand :)
- PzIIIL42, 2PzIIIL42-1T34, 3PzIIIL42-2T34. Then...
Could sort of work, yea. I was thinking of something
very similar. I think there's like a 10% disagreement,
but it's essentially that, yup.
- I thought J was the L60 ?
* See, I can give you stuff too ;) I'm glad you accept
the StuGIII as a PzIII for the blob thing.
* BTW, I agree your PzIII blob should share xp. In this
case, it warrants it.
* Yup! :)
*** BTW, now that you've explained the Tank/Artillerie
pool, I really like it, too. PzIII/MarderII or StuGIII/Wespe.
(Since StuGIII belong to Artillerie-Korps)
Should StuG be submitted to same non-blob speed
limitations?
I was thinking of something...
Why not give it speed limitations *BUT* it's released
from it, if 2 infantry groups follow it? :) You like?
Again, gameplay-wise, it's a con to help justify a further
Pro. It also works with the PzIII-ideology, and goes with
German doctrine.
-
I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
(More than T34/Sherman)
I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
(The Marder is)
*Loups proposal, I agreed with all of it.
The things in which I did not agree Were StuartIII and Bergepanzer.
- Hmm... so you want OstHeer to have a JS-2.
Wehr have Panther.
PE have Panther.
Hmm. Americans have Sherman76, Brits have
Firefly (Non-doctrinal, we said)(Churchill don't count)
Ok, you said not necessarily Tanks.
What do you propose?
-I voted for buildable Nashorn.
-Another thing could be a specialized pioneer squad that can build nerfed 88s. Many limitations though
-Panzer IV Battlegroup.
-StugIII Battlegroup.
-A single Tiger Call in.
Make your call ::)
-
-Another thing could be a specialized pioneer squad that can build nerfed 88s. Many limitations though
-Panzer IV Battlegroup.
-StugIII Battlegroup.
-A single Tiger Call in.
Make your call ::)
I think because 88s are already used by the two existing german factions and i wish stugIII will be buildable, i would vote for panzerIV battlegroup (wich should actually be 3) or even the single tiger. It happend often too me, that i was overrun by some dirty spammers with a bloody blob of whatever ist was units, and then i called the tiger and won immediately.. ;)
-
Is it my imagination or is there a huge chunk of the conversation
missing?
-
Its because of the new webdesign, you werent able to access the forum for a while 'because of maintenance' what it said.
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
-
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
I would like if that's added through doctrines, though. Therefore one doc has Elefant, another maybe a Tiger or a Panther-call-in.
However, I also think that not every doctrine should have a heavy tank or tank-destroyer. For example, another doc could be based around the Luftwaffe and have a StuKa-attack, with a Ju 87 coming in and dropping one single heavy 500 kilo bomb to destroy tanks from above (after all, most WW II-era tanks had rather weak top-armor).
Or something based around static warfare with a PaK40-emplacement. :)
One thing to the new design: I really like the new Homepage-design, however the way it's put into the Forums looks like someone threw literally a gigantic shitload over it. This brown is just a no-go in my opinion. It makes it very, very difficult to read posts.
Also, the few "white places" and letters still existing is really hurting my eyes. :(
I don't care if you make it look like someone shit on every post and topic, but then at least don't make it that dark-brown.
-
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.
-
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.
Panzer battlegroup? Whats that?
Id rather have a buildable vet 0 Tiger with 1 on the field limit.
Panther turrets will be better than unrecrewable emplacemests.
Nashorn should also be buildable while Ferdinand will be a heavy call-in.
-
Its because of the new webdesign, you werent able to access the forum for a while 'because of maintenance' what it said.
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
- PzIV, PzV, and JagPanzer (Long nosed)
(But mind you, it's already in OstHeer, now)(Reward unit)
(Although semi short barrel)
Post Merge: September 17, 2010, 06:11:16 PM
Eh. If someone has a multiple tank call-in, it should be the
soviets. Not the Germans.
I'm totally for the Stuka Junkers dropping 500kg bombs :)
Make it dive-scream, though. There's already one in a COH
mod, too. So it can be done allright.
I like the idea of a buildable-1 limit Vet 0 tiger on battlefield.
They were certainly more numerous in the East than in the West.
-
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?
I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.
Panzer battlegroup? Whats that?
Id rather have a buildable vet 0 Tiger with 1 on the field limit.
Panther turrets will be better than unrecrewable emplacemests.
Nashorn should also be buildable while Ferdinand will be a heavy call-in.
Panzer Battlegroup is that what PE already has, the Panther Battlegroup. Dont know if this is correct, i only own the german version..
@Loup: When we use PzIV and Panther again, then maybe in the battlegroup. Then two PzIV and one Panther. Ive already seen the video about the StuKa mod, i think it looks well but a bit laggy-unrealistic, the turn it does when throwing the bombs. Id like to hear the Stuka sirene and would like to see something like the pinned down effect when the stuka with sirens flies above them ;)
Tiger souns also good
-
"One of our tigers was worth 10 of your shermans" Said the German. "However, you always had the 11th"
http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/ (http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/)
... This is what I meant in saying that Americans/Russians should
always have more tanks than Germans. The -1 pop of Russian tanks
helps in that direction. I like.
But it's also why I'm uncomfortable with Germans being able
to have a lot more Tanks on the field than allies, see? That'S
what I was referring to.
----
Maxiking6 :
- Battlegroup of 2PzIV and 1PzV : WAaaaayy stronger than the
1 Tiger call-in, wouldn't you say? If anyone should have a multiple
tank call-in, it should be the Soviets.
- Ya. I like the 1 tiger capped buildable. Vet0 though. Michael
Wittman was an ace when he fought in the West, but he got his
Ace status in the EAST. Not a legend there... yet. There were a
lot more Tigers in the east than in the West.
- Crush those red idiots...
... No racism, this is not a political debate. We're discussing gameplay.
-
Maxiking6 :
- Battlegroup of 2PzIV and 1PzV : WAaaaayy stronger than the
1 Tiger call-in, wouldn't you say? If anyone should have a multiple
tank call-in, it should be the Soviets.
- Ya. I like the 1 tiger capped buildable. Vet0 though. Michael
Wittman was an ace when he fought in the West, but he got his
Ace status in the EAST. Not a legend there... yet. There were a
lot more Tigers in the east than in the West.
- Crush those red idiots...
... No racism, this is not a political debate. We're discussing gameplay.
It was just a little joke about the soviets.. When you look around in the farum, you'll see many of those phrases.
And the I would resize my battlegroup to one PzIV and one Panther, i dont want to exaggerate ;)
-
Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:
1) I want Stug3.
2) I want Pz3.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
(Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
-> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
(To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing
Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.
Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J1 (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".
I totally agree with you there, i like everything! :)
And for a heavy/call-in unit i think we should have the Nashorn buildable or 3 x Panzer III/IV as call in; and i think not many where built but it would be nice to see something new unlike the Tiger, Panther, Panzer IV call-in!
Panzer III/IV: http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/02-mPanzers/PzKpfw3-4/PzKpfw3-4.htm (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/02-mPanzers/PzKpfw3-4/PzKpfw3-4.htm)
PS: If the Nashorn is doctrine specific and you don't want the Panzer III/IV since it wasn't very used at least go with Panzer IV Battlegroup of 2 newer versions either the same or one Anti Tank and one Anti Infantry! ;D
Yeah i though so since WW2 Drawings doesn't even specify if there was a prototype and after a long search in google nothing showed then it was never used, and if it's not on google, it isn't anywhere! ;D But what about the Panzer IV battlegroup of a Stubby(AI) and a long barrel(AT)?
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Just one note:
Your Panzer III/IV wasnt never used in combat ( no Prototype was build ).
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- Sigh. a 3 PzIII battlegroup call-in? Why not make it a 12x Tiger
call-in battlegroup? If someone should have something like this, it
ought to be the Russians.
- Pz III/IV was not 'rarely used'. It was never used.
- As for Nashorn, it's too powerful. It would be akin to a Tiger
call-in and doctrinal and capped. I don't see it as a 'standard' unit.
-
- Who said anything about a Panzer III Battlegroup call-in?
- Yeah i eventually found out Panzer III/IV was never used!
- And yes Nashorn is too strong to be a buildable unit but they still need another tank other than StuG III, Panzer III and Panzer II(Luchs or Ausf. C)
- Can you stop with your obsession for the Russian to get a battlegroup?The Soviet faction is done so move on and think about the Ostheer!
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@Cozmin95
Noone wanted to change or discuss the soviet faction, and noone wanted them to get the tank-callins. I think Loup just wanted to say that the Germans are not about a huge tankarmy-callin -> quantity, but about fewer units and quality, who its reallife counterpart was.
Look, the soviet union had, in any situation in the war, more tanks than germany, but german crews were more skilled, every tank (if i remember right) had radio equipment, ans the sights were much better. also the german weapons where better ( in late-war).
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Exactly as Maxiking6 said.
Americans have a multi-tank callin (Infantry, call in battlegroup)
(Infantry and M10s/Greyhounds).
PE has a multi-tank calling (2x Panthers)
Wehr... No.
British... No.
If someone really ought to have the American infantry doctrine
battlegroup calling ability, it ought to be the soviets, seriously.
Now you describe the OstHeer having a multiple-tank BG calling
in ability? Seriously, I think not.
It's like giving Protoss ability to call-in Zerg-style 30 Carriers
all at once. Quality and quantity AND speed?
For those who are acquainted with Starcraft.
I like idea of a BUILDABLE core Tiger. Tigers were often seen on
Eastern Front. Perhaps a weaker Tiger? Perhaps capped to 1 ?
Starts with Vet0 at any rate.
How about paired with earlier, weaker PzIII's? (Weaker than PzIV)
I like Aouch's idea that grouped, they are stronger. The need to
mass them to use 'em well is a nice con. Illustrates the fact that
German commanders all had RADIOS and better group-training.
As for the soviets, they had a major revision not long ago.
It's never too late to change them again. I seriously think it would
make them into a better faction.
But my main beef here, is that OstHeer shouldn't have a soviet-
like ability that the Soviets can't themselves use!. That's what I
really say.
Who is with me on buildable-capped-Tigers?
Actually, eh. Wehr can mass Panthers. You could fudge Tiger
stats a bit and make 'em OstHeer 'Panthers' with a 'Tiger' model.
Of course, it would have to be tweaked :)
But anything that makes OstHeer few but strong has my vote.
Make 'em slightly weaker individually but stronger collectively than
Wehr, and it could be a 'OstHeer core flavor'. I like this 'zeal for
tanks' idea. Make 'em weaker individually, but being with other
units in proximity gives them a nice buff.
PzIII/StuGIII/Tigers? Could share this (And be considered similar
to PanzerGrenadiers Ge43, STG44, Shrek, K98 all being 'same' for
Zeal purposes)
That way, we could have 'German 'Zug' like Lord Rommel asked for.
Now, I'm not saying specifically 'Make Tigers weaker'. I'm saying
buildable tigers could be part of the equation of weaker PzIII, if you
cap them (tiger) and require Zeal as part of their 'ultimate' strenght.
If the 'Tank army' is defeated, it's harder to bring them back up-
strenght again. Historical.
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Who is with me on buildable-capped-Tigers?
Actually, eh. Wehr can mass Panthers. You could fudge Tiger
stats a bit and make 'em OstHeer 'Panthers' with a 'Tiger' model.
Of course, it would have to be tweaked :)
Now, I'm not saying specifically 'Make Tigers weaker'. I'm saying
buildable tigers could be part of the equation of weaker PzIII, if you
cap them (tiger) and require Zeal as part of their 'ultimate' strenght.
Me. And I totally agree with this because it balances gameplay AND is historical correct. Few, strong german units to shred soviet blobs.
I also like your idea of the group strengh. Its a nice gameplay feature.
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About all this call-in ideas:
U want that Ostheer use quality instate of quantity.
But keep in mind that CoH represent army formations
up to a regiment - not a hole army! So; Wehrmacht preferred
quality but in small areas Wehrmacht had quantity like all other
armys ;)
So keep the dimensions in mind ;)
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I think Panthers and Tigers must be doctrinal units, without doctrine OH just have early Stug III that is upgradeable to time as a mobile AT gun, Panzer III is the main attack tank with later upgrades (armour skirts and tungsten AP round), and with vet system can help strengten youre strike force. It would be more tactical than the other Factions. Remember that Rommels Ghost division fought in the east and they proved wery well, thoug everybody joked Rommel's forces. I'd be more like a Panzer elite faction, light and mobile force but not with hardly micro manageing Marder 3, or Paper Halftracks. With Doctrinal Panther and Tiger, the player can play as a regular WE the more tactical options I think must be the other two doctrines. Lufwaffe and something else Kampfgeschwader 200 (that was a secret inteligent service) support or something else.
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About all this call-in ideas:
U want that Ostheer use quality instate of quantity.
But keep in mind that CoH represent army formations
up to a regiment - not a hole army! So; Wehrmacht preferred
quality but in small areas Wehrmacht had quantity like all other
armys ;)
So keep the dimensions in mind ;)
---------
Sigh. You miss my point completely.
Fine. The German idea is "Local superiority' to have superiority.
I know this. But why does it have to be the whole 6th Panzer
elite army against a lonely T70 because T34's are now reward units?
It doesn't work from a game play point of view.
You want early, you want elite, you want powerful AND you want
quantity. Essentially, you are saying that if a German plays chess,
their board side ought to be all Queens (and 3 rows of it). Because,
well, Germans are just that superior.
1 zealot = 2 marines = 4 zerglings. Take your pick. You can't have
4 zealots = 4 zerglings.
Post Merge: September 20, 2010, 03:42:56 AM
About all this call-in ideas:
U want that Ostheer use quality instate of quantity.
But keep in mind that CoH represent army formations
up to a regiment - not a hole army! So; Wehrmacht preferred
quality but in small areas Wehrmacht had quantity like all other
armys ;)
So keep the dimensions in mind ;)
========
Are you saying that because germans prefer local superiority,
(As what their tenet, I won't take that away). Ever chess game
where germans play should be 100% queens (3 rows of them)
(That's 17 queens, 1 king), against 1 soviet pawn and king?
Post Merge: September 20, 2010, 03:44:44 AM
--------
He just said that OstHeer should have QUALITY *AND*
Quantity. Can'T someone see a problem here?
From a gameplay point of view?
Post Merge: September 20, 2010, 04:06:54 AM
@TheReaper :
Ah, but you heard LordRommel...
Germans must win every fight. It's not about making a side
interesting or even different. That's why no finnish, rumanian
or anything. That's why Pacific Expansion will be about Tiger
Armies racing atop the oceans sinking flying B17 formations :p
Remember, pearl harbor was about Germans attacking.
Didn't you hear? WW2 was about Germany against the World.
No Italians, no Japanese, No Finnish, No Rumanians, no Bulgarians,
no Croatians, no Spaniards, no nothing. Only JaegerTigers and
Maus and LandCruzer1500 arriving in the enemy's HQ before
he's finished making his 2nd Engineer.
-----
As for the StuGIII? Didn't exist.
Might be a reward unit for the Elefant. (1 on 1). Maybe.
PanzerIII can defeat Pershings 1 on 1. First shot, first blow.
------
He's not about balance or gameplay.
He's not about being innovative.
He's about heavy tanks and Germans winning all the time.
-------
I heard Germany had 5000 Tigers in every fight, every squirmish,
Every fist fight in bars. Why? Well, that's because Germans are
like that. They should have local superiority in - every - fight.
That's just how it happenned.
--------
Now that I'm done with my little rant for the moment.
The ... shit, forgot the name. The tank 'group bonus thing'
ZEAL. Thank you. is a good way to get both quality and quantity.
PzIII/StuGIII groups, for example. Throw in Tigers (Or whatever)
to the Zeal rule, and you can have it both ways.
But there's a couple of Cons to consider :
(It's all about spending ... points. Like creating a character.
It needs flavor, it needs balance, it needs an historical slant).
And it needs to be more than just 'Germany is Uber'.
What cons would you consider?
I'd offer individually weak German units (tanks). Radios,
Group tactics, etc. They were geared to fight as a hard core.
It's a little similar to the British uber blob, but with armor, and
with being hard to make up for losses rapidly.
This gives us possibility of buildable Tigers in numbers. No initial vet.
But they'd have to be nerfed individually in a crippling manner.
The 50% speed (50% attack speed?) when in enemy territory, and
when not in a Zug? (Is that the term?) Germany Panzer squadron.
Works for PzIII also.
With sidegrades that are myopic (Crippling upgrade one way or the
other), individually weak PzIII, you can keep the PzIII while making
it replace the PzIV.
The zeal rule also means no OstHeer Battlegroup call-ins, though.
Because that goes against the 'Strong when grouped, but fucked
as soon as they lose their bonus'. BG call-ins means instant
formation bonus. And there HAS to be an inherent weakness.
No weakness means no flavor.
-----
Sorry for the rant, but when someone says :
Germany only has quality AND quantity in every single battle...
I go nuts.
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Umm... lol?
He just said that Germans had strategic numerical superiority within a local region. He also said that CoH is a game where a single company engages in a skirmish with the enemy and, in such a small-scale conflict, the Blitzkrieg style local superiority wouldn't be seen down on the tactical level but on a grander, strategic scale (which this game doesn't represent).
Overreact much?
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Eh, I'm not perfect, I know.
He said German units had quality advantage over their opponents,
as well as having quantity advantage over their opponents. The
ratio of 3 PzIII over each T34 was mentionned.
Which brings us USA-like early game advantage *AND* Wehr-like
Late game advantage. Best of both worlds, anyone?
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He said German units had quality advantage over their opponents,
as well as having quantity advantage over their opponents. The
ratio of 3 PzIII over each T34 was mentionned.
Who compares T-34 to a PzIII? Its like comparing a Panther to a Sherman.
PzIII should be compared to BT-7 tanks, PzIV to T-26, Pz38(t) and PzII to T-26.
The truth is in 1941 Soviets had 23,106 tanks (more than rest of the world combined), of which about 12,782 were in the five Western Military Districts. Wehrmacht had about 5,200 tanks overall, of which 3,350 were committed to the invasion. About 1000 of Soviet T-34 and KV tanks had no German counterpart. ZiS-2 and ZiS-3 AT guns were better than any German PAK. Soviet 152mm guns (1938) were the best in their class. PPSH and SVT-40 were common. MiG-3, Jak-1 fighters, Il-2, PE-2 bombers were as good as Me-109e, Ju-87D and Ju-88a.
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I like idea of a BUILDABLE core Tiger. Tigers were often seen on
Eastern Front. Perhaps a weaker Tiger? Perhaps capped to 1 ?
Starts with Vet0 at any rate.
How about a Single Tiger Call in? Which works pretty much as the PE Panther call in. Because make it buildable, to be capped to 1, just doesnt really make much sense.
A two Panzer IV Call-in could also work.
-
He said German units had quality advantage over their opponents,
as well as having quantity advantage over their opponents. The
ratio of 3 PzIII over each T34 was mentionned.
Who compares T-34 to a PzIII? Its like comparing a Panther to a Sherman.
PzIII should be compared to BT-7 tanks, PzIV to T-26, Pz38(t) and PzII to T-26.
The truth is in 1941 Soviets had 23,106 tanks (more than rest of the world combined), of which about 12,782 were in the five Western Military Districts. Wehrmacht had about 5,200 tanks overall, of which 3,350 were committed to the invasion. About 1000 of Soviet T-34 and KV tanks had no German counterpart. ZiS-2 and ZiS-3 AT guns were better than any German PAK. Soviet 152mm guns (1938) were the best in their class. PPSH and SVT-40 were common. MiG-3, Jak-1 fighters, Il-2, PE-2 bombers were as good as Me-109e, Ju-87D and Ju-88a.
No one said anything about a ratio of 3 Pz.III to T-34, the idea that was presented was about a call in of "3 x Panzer III/IV". And that idea was already settled.
I think you're overreacting @Loupblanc, like will say in my country, you're making a storm in a glass of water.
-
- I prefer single Tiger call in. Maybe make it weaker, because it's
not 'doctrine'. Similar to IS-2. I don't want to see multiple Panzer
call-ins (Because it ought to go to Soviets). Might as well have a
multiple Tiger call-in. (And I'd rather reserve that for StuGIII) :)
(with the numbers built, they NEED their time in the light)
- PzIII compared to BT-7 tank... ugh. Weak armor, and 45mm
gun. Fast as hell, though. I'd say T-26, but... it's actually worse.
- True, in 1941 Germany raped Soviet army who was 2-3 times
larger. But as case in France and in Soviet Union, both have
horrible military leadership, and a doctrine of (similar to)
2 tanks per 100 men. The German Panzer army doctrine ripped
through that (Shouldn'T say that, someone might get ideas) lol.
They were caught napping.
On that assumption, Japanese were WAY better than anything
American at Pearl harbor. A pencil can kill a sleeping man, even
if he has laser guided sniper rifle. Is pencil better than laser
guided sniper rifle? No.
German planes caught Russian planes on ground.
A lot didn't have pilots.
Most Soviet generals were dead and in jail. Leadership nil (Local).
Then blitzkrieg set in, and they used FLAK88 in AT role to great
effect (as in France)(I think that was Rommel's idea).
(In Africa, too, mind you).
COH is set in 1943-1945. Not 1940-1941. Very VERRRRY
different war and setting.
Anyone have axis and allies? (The board game)
soviets can't attack on turn 1. Germans attack and decimate
them. It could be other way around if Soviets could've attacked
first, but they weren't ready.
Same for japanese at Pearl Harbor. Always useful when you catch
someone with their pants down ;)
SVT-40 and PPSH common in 1941? I think not.
But I know some german soldiers way preferred PPSH to Mp40.
SVT-40 is interesting, too. Ge43 had problem for years.
That gas cartridge was unreliable.
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@Loupblanc:
I want to remember that CoH isnt a game about the hole eastern front. When u start a battle u play a company or a regiment and not more. About this scale it is problem to say that german army used quality instate of quantity.
When u watch the hole german frontline u will see that germans were outnumbered by enemy's weapons but when u watch some specific points u will see that germans were able to outnumber the red army.
When regiment fight against regiment like in CoH your "quality over quantity concept" wont work in every detail!!
So out of my view it could be possible that Ostheer could produce a lot of Panzer III during the game. It could be that early T-34s are outnumbered by german Panzers because the size of CoH allow such a scenario.
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@TheReaper :
Ah, but you heard LordRommel...
Germans must win every fight. It's not about making a side
interesting or even different. That's why no finnish, rumanian
or anything. That's why Pacific Expansion will be about Tiger
Armies racing atop the oceans sinking flying B17 formations :p
Remember, pearl harbor was about Germans attacking.
LordRommel is a historian, he's have some good points even he's sometimes annoying. German Military SS forces had the military cooperation and brothership. That was the key for the succes of the "quality" and cooperation.
Historical background:
1943 July 13 a German Battlegroup ordered to push forward to soviet lines commanded by Dragunsky field marshall, who digged in their troops. In the German side there was
-11 Tiger
-72 Panzer 4
-16 Panzer 2 and Panzer 3
-30 Assault guns and Wespe SPA
After battle results in losses:
Soviets: 536 tanks
Germans: 89 tanks and assault guns
For the "zeal" I prefer this:
I was thinking about the veterancy system, that should be. I think the Hero Soliders started to appear in the EF, it could be done in the Ostheer. But that was told, there only 3 level of vet in coh, no chance adding a 4th one. My idea is that each level of vet gets an aura, that gives bonuses to accuracy to nearby units, like the british captian (not that much), or in Vet3 it can be upgrade to "Hero" that gives aura bonus to nearby units. It changes the look of the tank, that most of the heroes made custumozation to their vehicles, and the enemy can spot the hero unit. So the vet system works as the britis captain for everyone, or as an upgrade. It contain:
- faster reload time
- faster turning speed
- faster turret rotation
- heroic charge
- sprint
- camo
It reflects that the soliders work as a team. Yes ideas like the turret rotation speed is a bit strange, but it reflects, that the tank reacting faster, than an unexperienced crew. And for the ralism I must say a word: Pershing. :D 8)
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I mentioned this a dozen pages back or something, but the zeal can also represent the fact that German tanks had excellent radio communication between each other.
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To end the "I am the better historian" conflict between Lord Rommel and Loupblanc, we shouldn't let CoH be affected by too much realism. The best way is to balance gameplay. Remember, in a skirmish the Germans are able to beat the Allies, in reality 'on the wholle frontline' they werent.
The whole last 6 or 7 pages are full off (sorry, but its true) Loups complaints about the others suggestions. But I think we have together the core of the idea, the last pages contain (with some exceptions) the same stuff. Again and again. To conclude it:
Early PzIII. Comes with 50mm KwK38 L42, appears after Stuart and M8 or T70, but before Sherman/Cromwell/T34 arrive.
Upgrade to either 50mm KwK39 L60 (Better AT) or 75mm KwK 37 (Better AI) for Ammunition.
Then let Sherman, Cromwell and T34 come. With the appearing of T34 (like it was in reality) Germans realise that they need heavier guns to keep up with soviets. StugIII comes. Not with the short barreled AI gun, but with the 75mm StuK 40 (a slightly modified PAK as far as I remember. Let it be able to camouflage, and lock down for the defensive aims.
IS 2, maybe Pershing and Firefly are coming. Now we have to discuss (we should take one of the already mentioned) what comes to counter those heavy tanks. I'd say capped tiger, only one, callin from HQ (needs some conditions to be buildable to avoid it coming to early, maybe just like PEs Panthers which need all buildings and nearly all upgrades). Make it a little weaker than the Tiger of WM, but strong enough to be better than IS2.
I don't want to attack anyone, I'd just like a little more substancial progress. ;)
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I dont start and dont want a "conflict".
My problem is that creating a new faction needs so much details and point which had to be clarified.
I dont want to push u into a special direction.
It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.
Some ideas out of this board are great but not all of them could be part of the Ostheer.
It is a hard process to find the best parts for the Ostheer.
About foreign nations:
Well. I think we had finished this point already.
The problem with foreign troops is that we cant add all of them!
Think of the board history. When we wont add nation x some of the board trolls start to cry. When we wont add nation y the other group will start crying and complaining.
Nations are a problem. "Germans" are the best solution because they "initialised" the war at the eastern front. So they are a key element.
When Ostheer get foreign troops they had to be presented in a special kind to no affront or anger someone.
Hope u understand my point.
No "board war" ;)
Just a lot of discussions and topics ;)
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Allright then :)
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It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.
+1
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Doesn't that translate into german auto-win, though?
If Protoss can make more zealots, faster, than Zerg can
make Zerglings... where is the balance, here?
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@Loupblanc:
Sometimes i have the strange feeling that u can react like a child sometimes ;)
Anyone want a "auto win faction". Thought that this is one of the key elements of a new mod: creating a new, balanced, not auto winning faction.
So i think we dont need any Starcraft comparison here ( small personal note: i cant like starcraft so i have no ideas about the intent of your comparison :P ).
All in all like i had already written: good ideas need time and discussions!
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Wow you guys have really taken to this thread great job.
heres some of my ideas though forgive me if you have already posted this but I last checked this thread back at page 16 so there no way im reading ALL of that text.
*Panzer III can and probably should outnumber t34 and shermans early game because they are inferior designs to both tanks. Also the fact that in 1941 and 1942 to a lesser extent there were swarms of german tanks (mainly panzer III) swarming across Russia and there were very few T-34 and KV tanks to begin with. However as the war progressed the german tanks began to be replaced and upgrade while more and more T-34's were pumped. So how does this relate to the game? Make the panzer III cheap and numerous yet inferior to the t34 and sherman to begin with but give it upgrades or replacements or whatever later on to show the shift in more allied tanks and fewer but better german tanks.
*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.
*The Panzer II Luch WILL be in the ostheer as proven by spoilers so it will be early game and it will probably be something comparable to the armoured cars of the Panzer elite or something simmilar to the Stuarts used by the brits.
Will contribute later but I've got uni work to do ::)
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The panzer 3 with 50mm gun should be just weeker than the T-34 but it should have good accreacy and number of abilaties to let it compete after the kill ratio of tanks was 8:1 to the germans in 1942 but when bigger tanks come out have panzer 4's and tiger's to face them
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*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.
What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. Sure, there are some alternatives to StugIII, but you can't ignore it to be the most produced german armoured fighting vehicle in world war II. It also owns the same gun that StugIV has, has the same armour (up to 80mm) and the same top speed of 40km/h or 25 mph. The StuGIII is actually 70mm longer than StuGIV (with barrel), 50mm wider and 50mm lower. StuGIV has only been built, because Alketts Factory was heavily damaged by a bombing run in September 1943. So Daimler Benz and Krupp were ordered to build another Sturmgeschütz on Panzer IV's hull.
I wish that it will be in Ostheer :)
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[...]What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. [...]
well, compared to the number of ostwind (~50) and wirbelwind (~100) tanks the nashorn wasn't rare. the existing vehicles (~473) were mostly used on the eastern front and were quite successful.
another option as a tankhunter would be the marder II.
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Personally I would love to see nashorns and maybe marder I or II would be nice too. Elefant/Ferdinand is pretty much gauranteed as well.
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@Ghost
AA Tanks and tank destroyers are a whole different thing ;) Also these were made by Relic, and they also included Bergetiger and a StuH42 on PanzerIV hull...
Marder 2 sounds also nice to me, because there were many wishes for PanzerII to be included, but until now we just saw the Version of Ausf. L with the different chassis. Elefant Ferdinand is like Versedhorison said nearly guaranteed in the Ostheer, but as to-one-capped doctrinal callin.
I only said that when I think of tank destroyers on eastern front, StuGIII is standart because it was produced around 10.000 times.
But I can imagine Nashorn also as doctrinal unit or latgame tankdestroyer.. like it is in BK-Mod (no worries, Eastern Front stays the 'one and only' mod ;))
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the wehr geschützwagen is a marder I build on hotchkiss chasis.
@MaxiKing6
i just wanted to point out that we already have plenty of vehicles in coh and EF that were produced in low numbers (e.g. pershing with 8 and "bergetiger" with 1-3, t-90 few prototypes).
i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine
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i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine
Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.
Panzerjäger I just saw action in France 1940 and in the east until 1942, when all vehicles where pulled off from th front because their firepower wasn't sufficient against T34 and KV1. I don't think we need such an early-game tankdestroyer, Panzer III can do it.
Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär. Here's the number of production the problem. There were only 306.
Nashorn. I don't know what to think about it yet ;)
See. we don't have to include tons of tanks. You just listed seven tanks. Wehrmacht has 4 buildable, PE just 3, USA the same and Brits have also 4. We don't need 2 tanks for every purpose. Germans had also lots of interesting halftracks and armoured cars, which can deal with infantry and light vehicles. And don't forget the infantry ;)
Bu this thread is not about halftracks or armoured cars, its about tanks. I think Ostheer should have 4 buildable tanks, thats all.
Panzer II, Panzer III, Stug III and a yet unknown we are about to suggest :D
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Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.
SdKfz7/1 is better than PzII becouse it will serve in a AA role too.
3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck. Ostheer dosnt need mid game Marders if it will have Stugs. It needs A late game TD - Nashorn.
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3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck.
First, it wasn't my idea, its been said several times on the last few pages. Marder II could serve as a reward unit for StugIII just like in WM.
But SdKFZ 7/1 is okay. But it doesn't need to replace PzII, both can be included.
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i never said i want all tanks included. i just listed the tanks and possible roles. nothing more nothing less.
there was a screen of a panzer II model so it's quite likely to be part of OH or a reward unit.
as mentioned before: number of tanks built is not important. if you go for numbers only then you would have to use panzer II, III, IV, panther and tiger.
let's not forget that just ~90 elefants were built and it's likely to be included as well.
sturmpanzer IV saw a lot of action in kursk battle.
about marder: why not? it was used on eastern front and it would not be the same as marder I or III. it's like saying "why panzer II or III we already have panzer IV" ::)
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It makes me nuts when you people say : Who cares how many
were built?
- Said no Finnish T34/StuIII because lots of not-yet-put-in-game
German units...
Solution : More Tigers, More Panthers, More PanzerIV...
- Said number built not important. Fine, let's change American
faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
used. Same for Soviets. Remove T34, Moshin Nagand, etc. And
only put experimental units and models or units from WW1
(but buff them so they can take on King Tiger)(Renaud 1 anyone?)
* No StuIIIF ? Fine. Delete T34/Sherman, then. That's basically
what you just said, ghost. And anyone who doesn't think StuIII
should have #1 medium tank spot in OstHeer (along with PzIII)
* Details. I've been playing BF1942:FH0.7 lately, and doing
a little more research. Stuart is TINY!! And PzIII and PzIV seemed
to be about the same size (Almost). So, yea, could work as a
T34/Sherman wannabe. But I *INSIST* it have various side-grades
instead of UP-grades (Skirts excepted). That's why went PzIV,
remember? And you DID say OstHeer would explore DIFFERENT
units. Or give us captured T34's (I'd love those for North group)
as a call-in. The zeal/slow unit *NERF* works pretty good, too.
: I wouldn't want to limit it to just PzIII, though.
** I'm fine with Elefant, Weakened Tiger (Zeal rule too)(limit 1),
Marder2, Wespe, etc. Nashorn (would take Elefant doctrine slot)
(Would be that doctrine's 'King Tiger' slot)(KV2, whatever).
** I want PzIII/StuIII as their 'Sherman/T34'. No PzIV.
As for saying StuIII is just a StuIV... error.
StuIV is a DOWNGRADE for the PzIV.
StuIII is a UPGRADE for the PzIII. Also #1 killer of Russian tanks
in WW2. Cmon.
Otherwise, you might as well give buffed Stuarts to OstHeer and
say it's not about history. Who cares about history. And Give
OstHeer Klingon Battlecruisers.
* Lord Rommel :
I know I'm not perfect. But at least I am totally devoted to
flavorful balance. Not 'My faction has to auto-win'. The Conversion
idea is actually very good. Please consider it.
PzII - Wespe - Marder 2.
PzIII - StuIII - BergerPanzerIII? (Just putting it in there) :)
- PzIIIJ
- PzIIIN
Detail : PzIII to PzIIIJ/N conversions were done at FACTORY.
Not 'in the field'. So PzIII to StuIII isn't any different.
Post Merge: September 22, 2010, 07:42:28 AM
@Lord Rommel :
As for the Starcraft2 reference.
Zerg is a very low quality, very high quantity faction.
The Zergling is the conscript.
Protoss is a very high quality, very low quantity faction.
The Zealot is the KCH - King's cross holder.
Your comments, essentially, were that OstHeer would have
King Tigers with no caps at the cost of Pioneers. 'Because
Germany should always win'. That Germany should have
Speed, Quality AND Quantity advantages over every other
faction. ... and that's wrong.
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Dudes what are you arguing for; maybe the devs already took a decision and are letting us talk till the Ostheer is done! ::)
But if anyone listening this is what tanks i want the Ostheer to have:
-Panzer III L/42(L/60 and L/24 upgrade like skirts and mg on Stubby)
-StuG III as a global upgrade like Light Tankovy Support and once that upgrades is done you can either build them or replace from Panzer III near Factory like a squad near buildings
-Panzer II so we don't have to make the Wespe doctrinal
-Wespe same thing as StuG III and it upgrades from Panzer II
-Panzer II Luchs
And those are all the units i want to see buildable! :)
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@Loupblanc
are you serious ::)
Said number built not important. Fine, let's change American
faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
used.
so you didn't get the point. all i said was that you can't design the ostheer faction looking for the most used vehicles. cause if you do we will have panzer IV, panther and tiger again. but we are looking to include other vehicles as well to offer something new.
not like relic ("bergetiger") but vehicles that have actually been used. but sometimes you cannot be 100% historically accurate for balance reasons. keep in mind it's a game not a historical simulation.
and stop complaining about "german auto win" ::) maybe you haven't noticed but we are looking for balanced suggestions ;)
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As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing. ;)
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions. ???
I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.
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A small résumé:
Panzer II:
We present u Ausf. L - know as Luchs Spähpanzer.
Panzer III:
Tank is already confirmed. We have present u pics of the
Pz III Ausf. J with 5cm KwK L/60 and Pz III Ausf. N with 7,5cm KwK L/24.
So u can be sure that Pz III will be a part of the Ostheer.
Panzer IV:
Community is divided.
Number of user want to see Pz IV - number of user wont see Pz IV
Panzer V "Panther":
Same like Pz IV.
Panzer VI "Tiger":
Same like Pz IV.
All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.
Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.
Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)
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All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.
Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.
Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)
Well theres the problem, we aside from the dev's don't know what the actual concept and direction of the ostheer is gonna be so we can't really make a discussion about how certain tanks would be consistent with a concept we don't know about. So far this thread has been a mix of wishlisting and arguements over people opinions. On the other hand there have been useful posts over people making ideas and plans for how certain tanks would work if they were in the mod at all. This kind of discussion about how certain tanks can work in the mod is what this thread should be about despite my original post. Anything else is just reiterations of what people have been over before and is now pointless. so for starters...
In terms of German tanks in general:
*Panzer I isn't confirmed. I personally see it working just like the T-90 but maybe a bit weaker vs vehicles. OR make it the command tank version like what the brits have except giving different effects.
*Panzer II Luchs IS in the ostheer. I personally see it working on a similar level to that of the T-70 or of the Armoured Cars.
*Panzer 35t and 38t Isn't confirmed. I personally see them as somewhere in between the panzer II and panzer III in terms of everything.
*Panzer III IS in the ostheer. I personally see it coming into play T3 as something initially weaker, cheaper and more numerous than the t-34, sherman, Panzer IV, cromwell and Stug IV to an extent. However I see it gaining upgrades to continue its usefulness later on in the game as a specialized tank being less numerous and more expensive. So of course give it better armour and a better or specialized gun eg maybe to give it something like treadbreaker to help support T4 ostheer tanks or make it like the Panzer elite panzer IV since it did get a short barreled 75mm gun IRL.
*Panzer IV Isn't confirmed. The way I see it you've got the Wehrmacht version with the big gun or the Panzer Elite version with the little gun unless there is another version I am unaware of.
*Panzer V Panther Isn't Confirmed. There really is only one way to do this thing and imo it probably should be in the ostheer because every faction needs some heavy(ish) tank that comes in late game and isn't doctrine specific.
*Panzer VI Tiger Isn't Confirmed. probably doesn't need to be in the ostheer gameplay wise although that just depends on the final ostheer concept and how they play. The debate over whether it should be a doctrine call in or buildable continues however imo having it buildable would be nicer to free up more doctrine slots for cool new stuff that already isn't in the game.
*Panzer VI Tiger II Isn't confirmed. If it does get in the ostheer make it with the henchel turret.
I might go into assault guns and TD later but I'll leave it at that for now.
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FOR AND AGAINST[/b] each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.
Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.
Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)
Thank you very much.
As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing. ;)
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions. ???
I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.
Correct ;)
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You all know why I don't take parts on these types of topics?
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- Why, seeme?
- Non historical mod : Why make Germans be ostHeer, then?
It might as well be Japanese against the Soviets. I mean, history
or reality isn't a factor here, right?
- #1 Tank in Germany army not represented in ANY of the three
factions... ... Yes. That's like removing the Sherman and T34 from
the Americans and Soviets. It really is.
- My point with the PzIII. I don't have a problem with the PzIII
being there, as long as it's relationship to the StuIII is there, too.
My ISSUE. Is that if you compare it's role against the PzIV...
The OstHeer PzIII will be 1) As powerful, as solid. 2) Cheaper.
3) More numerous. 4) Earlier. That's 4 advantages against the
PzIV. How is there balance in that?
Seriously, you won't need OstHeer to have a tank destroyer
if there's 3x PzIII (each superior to the T34) at point blank as
the first T34 rolls out. Then it'll be 4 against 1, 5 against 1...
I still think my idea is 1) Historical, 2) Balanced.
How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??
A thousand apologies for my rant like form of expression,
I think those are serious considerations to think about.
Post Merge: September 23, 2010, 01:50:24 AM
I'm even in agreement over PzII, MarderII, Wespe.
I hope wespe wouldn't be 100% stats of Priest, though.
I'm even in agreement over BUILDABLE Tiger Mk1. But with in-
built weaknesses. Like IS-2. It had it's place on the Eastern Front.
Ah, I'm sorry. It's true. non-historical.
Well, put Leopard II and King Tiger MkVI, then. Although KT was
clearly Western Front, not East Front :)
(Or was it JagTiger? Now I'm confused)
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How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??
+1
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How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??
no one ever mentioned that. and pls stop making big senseless posts like that. it takes time to read it and offers NOTHING that makes sense, sorry but it had be said :-X
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Yes it's been mentionned. And the whole point of the argument
is that it's unbalanced and game breaking.
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Just wait for LordRommel reading this... the thread will be closed :-X.
How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??
no one ever mentioned that. and pls stop making big senseless posts like that. it takes time to read it and offers NOTHING that makes sense, sorry but it had be said :-X
Well, I have to agree with him.
Yes it's been mentionned. And the whole point of the argument
is that it's unbalanced and game breaking.
I'll search for that post.
EDIT: I didn't found such post.
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Loup@
Because everyone is making long, pointless post with have no value whatsoever trying to prove some random guy over the internet wrong. Its not even like the devs are listening to this nonsense? Waste of time, Effort.
That is why.
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LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's
btw Seeme your @ is in the wrong place.
Im all for the Panzer III instead of a Panzer IV.
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LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's [...]
[...]Panzer III:
Tank is already confirmed. We have present u pics of the
Pz III Ausf. J with 5cm KwK L/60 and Pz III Ausf. N with 7,5cm KwK L/24.
so we have version J for AT with long barrel 5cm gun (inferior to 7,5cm gun of wehr panzer IV) and version N with 7,5cm short barrel gun likely to be like PE panzer IV.
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No am not.
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LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's
btw Seeme your @ is in the wrong place.
Im all for the Panzer III instead of a Panzer IV.
Best be trolling there
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- So far there seems to be a J and an N version.
No 37mm. No medium 50mm.
Only short 75mm and long 50mm.
The short 75mm replaces the PzIV-AI rolewise.
The long 50mm works like the PzIV-F2 kinda, but
with less AOE-HE on it's round.
Been playing BF1942 FH, and StuIII is bigger than StuIV.
PzIII and PzIV are of comparable sizes, save for the turret, mostly.
PzIII isn't very fast.
I don't mind PzIII being in ostheer as MBT, just that I'd like
for their to be differences... in their operation that differentiates
the PzIII from the PzIV.
@ As for the Starcraft2 reference, not asking you to like it.
Just that then you'd understand what I'm trying to say.
Topic closed
Lord Rommel - DEV