ostheer medium tanks

[Ghost]

Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II 

i was thinking about a real tankhunter like either marder II or nashorn to deal with heavier tanks.

[Ryousan]

Re: Chuch Norris Spam.
 In game terms, if you change all the Zerglings to Uberlisks
 (Ultralisks) with a 4vs1 ratio advantage and 3vs1 quality
 advantage... it just doesn't add up.

Point Noted.

There will be Something uber for each OstHeer tree to deal with
 ISU152

Well that is not entirely true, try to kill an ISU while being Scorched Earth PE Commander, Yeah Marder is one solution. But Stug is not Marder. And heavily depends on how the Stug will be represented. Yet, Point Noted.

- Pershing is 1 doctrine unit of 1 doctrine tree.
 OstHeer has Elefant. Of 1 doctrine tree. It balances out

Alright, I need to quote Lord Rommel in this one

With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II 

A third tank is needed, you cant fix all with Stug Spam  . Yet, Point Noted.

- Yes, I'm the one you suggested it.
 You can't take my own suggestion and turn it against me.
 It would say that my idea is bad because I said it.

I apologise for that. Yet, never said that your idea was bad.

[Loupblanc]

Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II 

i was thinking about a real tankhunter like either marder II or nashorn to deal with heavier tanks.

 - OstHeer will have both Marder2 and NashHorn (Marder4).
 So it's not an issue.
 Marde2 buildable, Nashhorn doctrine 'tiger' call-in.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Who said that Ostheer get Marder II and/or Nashorn Oo
And why do u call Nashorn Marder IV...

Loupblance...u confuse me more and more 

[Aouch]

- OstHeer will have both Marder2 and NashHorn (Marder4).
 So it's not an issue.
 Marde2 buildable, Nashhorn doctrine 'tiger' call-in.

I don't think that'll happen. Marder 2, OK. But Nashorn (btw, it was never called Marder 4, therefore you shouldn't call it Marder 4. It was Nashorn, Panzerjäger "Nashorn", SdKfz. 164 or "Hornisse". But never Marder 4, not even to show it was something like the Marder-tankhunters, because it wasn't) would be very, very difficult to balance out to fill the narrow gap between Marder and Elefant.

I would even go that far and say either Pz3 and Stug3 are Reward-dependent (either Pz or Stug) or Pz3 is MTB and Stug3 and Marder2 are Reward-dependent (either Stug or Marder).

Also, now you've got Ryousan, you completely forgot commenting my main statement which could perhaps help you understand my point of view on the whole "Pz3/Stug3"-story. 

My concept was to give them the British-movement-con you suggested, therefore they are forced to move in groups.
However, this doesn't mean that you have 15 tanks driving in groups of 3-4 all over the battlefield but instead you have only one group of 3-4 Pz3.
This Panzerrudel can't be everywhere, BUT where it is, it's usually numerical superior.
Therefore the rest of the frontline can't have tanksupport but instead has to rely on Stugs (like you said, Stugs were the tanks of the infantry! Therefore the idea of Stugs being a mobile cover for inf), PaKs or improvised AT-tactics.

[Ryousan]

Stugs were the tanks of the infantry!   Therefore the idea of Stugs being a mobile cover for inf), PaKs or improvised AT-tactics.

+1

[Loupblanc]

Re: Chuch Norris Spam.
 In game terms, if you change all the Zerglings to Uberlisks
 (Ultralisks) with a 4vs1 ratio advantage and 3vs1 quality
 advantage... it just doesn't add up.

Point Noted.
 - Thank you. So why be for PanzerIII that are more
 numerous AND superior to T34/Sherman?
 (5700 to 75000)

There will be Something uber for each OstHeer tree to deal with
 ISU152

Well that is not entirely true, try to kill an ISU while being Scorched Earth PE Commander, Yeah Marder is one solution. But Stug is not Marder. And heavily depends on how the Stug will be represented. Yet, Point Noted.

 - Scorched Earth PE commander. Panther+Marder+
 Sector Artillery + Troop Bazooka/AT grenades. Against
 a SINGLE ISU152 ? Nooo problem.
 - StuGIIIF is noted AT tank. With Ambush/First Strike,
 it could work as an armored weak Marder with more
 resilience Similar to a Hetzer.

- Pershing is 1 doctrine unit of 1 doctrine tree.
 OstHeer has Elefant. Of 1 doctrine tree. It balances out

Alright, I need to quote Lord Rommel in this one

With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II 

A third tank is needed, you cant fix all with Stug Spam  . Yet, Point Noted.
  - Of course you can deal with Russian JS-2 with StuG3F.
 Plus, it gives it perfect reason for why it's needed.
 M10 can kill King Tiger. Why can't StuG3F kill JS-2 ?
 Throw in Marders to the mix, problem fixed.
 - Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
 With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
 you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
 tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
 and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).

- Yes, I'm the one you suggested it.
 You can't take my own suggestion and turn it against me.
 It would say that my idea is bad because I said it.

I apologise for that. Yet, never said that your idea was bad.

 - Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p

 ----
 @ Lord Rommel :
 I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to
 be in OstHeer. As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
 so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.
 
 The Nashorn is a Panzer4 conversion, so I call it Marder4.
 Just like the Marder3 is a conversion of PzIII - Oh, wait,
 it's a conversion of Pz(38)t, nevermind. Lol.

  But Marder2 would explain why there won't be StuGIII in
 OstHeer, and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther, as
 Aouch demanded.

 - You confuse me more and more.
 : Learn French

 @ Aouch :
 - If Pz2/Wespe is in, why shouldn't be Marder2 ?
 - I'm not german. So I'll never call it :
 Panzerjäger "Nashorn", SdKfz. 164 or "Hornisse".
 As Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausführung H (‘Panzer VI version H’, abbreviated PzKpfw VI Ausf. H), but the tank was redesignated as PzKpfw VI Ausf. E ... I'll call it Rhino, or Marder4 at worse.
 Nashorn is the best I'll call it. As long as we both know we're
 talking about the same tank, no problem.
 - NAshorn won't be in same Doctrine as Elefant. It's a mobile
 PAK88 in game terms with the mobility of a Hummel.
 And, yes, it'll be in OstHeer.
 
 - How about making StuG3 and Marder2 the main tanks
 of OstHeer, and have PzIII as reward unit? I doubt you'd
 agree. Thus my whole point.
 - Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
 PzIII that kill IS-2.
 - Oh, I said that StuG were the infantry support
 (They're part of Artillery-corps, I said), not Panzer-Corps.
 Soooo... yea, in that context, StuGIII and PzIII could be
 reward unit to each other.

 I'd like the mass PzIII to be a doctrine, not general.
 Or else, why not say, Allies forever have tons of tanks,
 and Germans never have any? (German tank armies are
 elsewhere). It can't be 100% 'Today, the elite german
 spearhead shows up) :p

 Soviets and Americans also had Tank armies.
 The only army who had no tank army was... France.
 Believed to have the largest, most modern, and best
 equipped army in the world in those days
 (But no tank army).

 We saw what happenned to THEM.

 - Small note :
 General DeGaulle kept screaming for tank armies
 for years. Got ignored. Finally, in frustration, he kidnapped
 some 20+ tanks (Don't know how much) and send them on
 a counterattack against the Germans. He was the only one
 who was able to hurt Germans at ALL.
 : They wanted to courtmarshal him for disobeying orders :p

 According to French Tank doctrine, tanks were mobile
 pillboxes that accompanied Infantry.

 @Ryousan :
 StuGS being infantry-tanks. Oh, I'm totally for that too.

[Aouch]

You know what Loupblanc? I'm done with you and your arguments.

I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to be in OstHeer.

Link or it never happened.

As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
 so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.

Ah. Following your argumentation, it's logical to have StuIG 33B in the OH because there will be Pz3. 

and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther
- Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
 PzIII that kill IS-2

Sorry for being a bit rude, but don't you notice you're making a fool out of yourself?
I've stated infinite times that I want Stugs and don't want Pz3 being an uber-tank which is four times more powerfull, twice as common and half the price of T-34.
Despite I said that countless times, you continue to use that phrase over and over again. 

Now back to topic:
I think everything was said in this thread, nothing new comes. Only the same old "discussion" which goes over 3 pages back.

[Loupblanc]

You know what Loupblanc? I'm done with you and your arguments.

I've read in numerous places that the NashOrn was going to be in OstHeer.

Link or it never happened.
 
 - Fine. There will be *NO* Nashorn in the Ostheer.
 Because you said so. Now Lord Rommel can't add it
 to the OstHeer. Are you satisfied?

As for the Marder2, it's a Panzer2 conversion,
 so it's logical that it'll be in OstHeer.

Ah. Following your argumentation, it's logical to have StuIG 33B in the OH because there will be Pz3. 

 - Never heard of StuIG 33B before?? I'm learning something
 new. Well, it seems like a very small run tank.
 Production history
Designer   Alkett
Designed   1941-2
Manufacturer   Alkett
Produced   1942
Number built   24

 Plus, it'S 1941-1942 (5 left in 1944)
 Guess you'd like it spammable/uncapped?

and why PanzerIII will be the new Panther
- Yes, I know. You want no StuG, and want uber numberous
 PzIII that kill IS-2

Sorry for being a bit rude, but don't you notice you're making a fool out of yourself?
I've stated infinite times that I want Stugs and don't want Pz3 being an uber-tank which is four times more powerfull, twice as common and half the price of T-34.
Despite I said that countless times, you continue to use that phrase over and over again. 

 - Topic on table is removing StuGIII (Putting is as a
 Reward unit) which would rebalance the PzIII as an uber
 tank. Well not 4x more powerful. Maybe 1.5 vs 1 T34,
 at 60% price, with a ratio of 3 on 1.

Now back to topic:
I think everything was said in this thread, nothing new comes. Only the same old "discussion" which goes over 3 pages back.

 Well, actually, yes. Some things did come out of it.

 Making StuGIII a reward unit for PzIII. (But capped)
 (With no cap on PzIII).
 No Nashorn. (Absolutely not in OstHeer)
 MarderII as the AT unit (Thus no need for StuGIII)
 with Buffed/cheap/numerous/powerful PzIII. (Who comes
 early).

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Je ne veux pas ecrire francais ici 

About Nashorn: Anyone had said that Ostheer get Marder II or Nashorn. This are community rumours

[Blackbishop]

@Loupblanc

You should calm down pal, you're spaming ideas that already presented yourself(overall) pages before. Lord Rommel just wrote some options for the ostheer and of course, it contradicts each other because are different options.

You read him, he wants to implement the Stug if possible without the reward system, you don't need to defend your point like this.

You have to reflect what devs can do and why they are doing it. I think you're overreacting. This won't help your suggestions and probably most people could have a bad opinion about you because of how you defend your point.

[Loupblanc]

 @Lord Rommel :
 - Et pourquoi ne veux-tu pas écrire en Francais ici?
 Ca serait rigolo, et on pourrait peut-etre se comprendre
 pour une fois Ca ferait différent, et ca serait fort
 enrichissant

 @BlackBishop :
 - Yea but it pisses me off that Aouch says oh yes,
 that is the best idea yet! You are so right! Even if
 ideas contradict each other. If Lord Rommel declared
 the introduction of Japanese Units in OstHeer (He
 won't, but for argument's sake) I bet Aouch would
 say oh yes! This is your best idea yet, let's do it! :p

 - I have a very good idea of what the mods can or
 can't do. Been around modding communities for a few
 years, namely Merciless Creations (BF1942) and Forgotten
 Hope group, under various names. I been playing video
 games for awhile, namely just about everything WW2-
 related, and have been paying attention to COH_EF
 since it began. Fine, I'm passionnate, and opiniated, and
 outspoken.
 
  Is it too much to ask for something that is Historical,
 balanced, different yet has a fun, but distinct feel?
 Well, yes But, still.

  I recall when they said no to Finn StuG/captured T34's.
 And Italy and Romanian and... saying there were too many
 German units still unrevealed. And yes, often, there has
 been quite a bit of talk about excluding the StuGIII.
 
  It can't be a doctrine unit, it can't be a call-in, it has
 to be a refit, or buildable.

  I guess I'm just sad they shoot down any and every
 interesting idea that fits well and is balanced, in favor
 of Uber and numerous German tanks that were the
 exception, not the rule.

 And a thousand apologies, I know I do not express myself
 very well, at times. I'd like to see you try it in French

[Aouch]

Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:

1) I want Stug3.
2) I want Pz3.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
    Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
    (Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
    needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
    -> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
    (To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing

Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.

Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J¹ (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.

For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.

And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".

[Ryousan]

Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
 With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
 you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
 tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
 and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).

My bad, didnt express myself correctly. I meant a HEAVY OPTION. Which can be a Tankdestroyer, a Battlegroup or sorts. Tank are not a must

- Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p

Nope, Just didnt agree with some of them.

For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.

I vote for a heavy buildable. In addition to the ones that will be doctrine specific.

[Loupblanc]

Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
 - $#!(**$??

Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:

1) I want Stug3.
 * Me too.
2) I want Pz3.
 * Me too.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
    Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
 * Me too.
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
    (Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
    needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
 * Ok, I agree, but there is something I hadn't understood.
  I only wanted the speed limitation to prevent early rape,
  due to other faction not having AT yet. You want to keep
  it PE-Infantry style blob style as a CON to get a 'PRO'
  That of buffing the rather 'weak' MTB to decent levels.
  I hadn't understood that. In fact, I even wanted to
  limit to 2, and/or include the StuGIII to remove the con.
  and/or for further upgrades to remove this con. But you
  kept insisting on it, and I couldn't understand why.

    Essentially, you were saying that if you take the time
 to build a Panzer Armored Fist, it should behave like one.
 While I understood that you were saying that all German
 Panzers should be uber AND more numberous, because
 it's what would be fun. Now, that's completely different.
 I still think StuGIII should count as a PzIII towards
 remove this con, then. I think we are in agreement
 (3 PzIII, or 2x PzIII and 1x StuGIII for example)
 * Actually, now that I understand it better, I am
 totally for it. Perfect for trapping Panzer armies if
 they lose too many units in a 'spear', too. It's a
 substantial con, that warrants a sizeable PRO I can
 agree to.

5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
    -> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
    (To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
 * Me too.
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing
 * Me too.
Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.
 * That's not what I understood. I understood that German
 should have 3 PzIII by the time Soviets come out with their
 first T34, and that PzIII should win 1-on-1. 'Because
 Germans are Uber'. / Do you understand my reaction now?

Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J¹ (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
 * Yes.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
 * Yes.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
 * Yes.
 * Dumb, not Dump
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.
 * Oh, this I like.
 * Actually, I'll even agree extra, because the
 StuGIII was part of the Artillerie korps, not the
 Panzer Korp.
 * Didn't know the Pool system.
For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.
 * Well, er... duh Of course.
 Panther/Tiger/NashHorn/JagPanther lots of candidates.
 I shudder at the thought of PzIII as heaviest tank :p

And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".

* Aouch wants most of wha was linked above in this post.
 I can prove it

Post Merge: September 16, 2010, 12:01:49 AM

Third Tank? Panzer 4 or Panzer 5?
 With Panzer4, don't need Panzer3. With Panzer5 Panther,
 you don't need StuG3F (So you have a MOST numerous
 tank that was NEVER represented in all German armies,
 and Panther/Panzer4 that was in all 3 factions).

My bad, didnt express myself correctly. I meant a HEAVY OPTION. Which can be a Tankdestroyer, a Battlegroup or sorts. Tank are not a must
 - Well, every faction/doctrine has a game winner power.
 (Tiger, King Tiger, V1, Pershing, God of War, IL2, etc)

- Yes, you methodically say my ideas are bad :p

Nope, Just didnt agree with some of them.
 - You don't agree with any of them :p
 - I'll prove it, too, by saying OstHeer should have PzIII.
 You won't be able to control yourself I can prove it!!

For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.

I vote for a heavy buildable. In addition to the ones that will be doctrine specific.

- Hmm... so you want OstHeer to have a JS-2.
 Wehr have Panther.
 PE have Panther.
 Hmm. Americans have Sherman76, Brits have
 Firefly (Non-doctrinal, we said)(Churchill don't count).

 Should OstHeer ALSO have Panthers, or do you think
 they should have default buildable Tigers?
 (I think soviets should have an upgradeable non
 - doctrine T34 call-in)(Up to 2x T3485+2x Strelsky
 squads). Eh.
 
 Ok, you said not necessarily Tanks.
 What do you propose?