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Messages - Stan
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« on: January 28, 2010, 04:03:31 PM »
Hey, everybody.
Thanks for all the great feedback so far. I'm glad we can discuss this like gents (and ladies?).
I'm beginning to think, as I play this mod more and more, that my original idea isn't so great after all. Yeah, its happening, I'm starting to agree with my opponents.
I'm noticing, just as my opponents have predicted, that on larger team games, the Soviets lose all their early-game usefulness, and become a detraction from the team without their Command Squad.
The idea of this alteration was, originally, to bring the Soviet early game down to a brutal game of delay tactics, using the lives of your conscripts as a way to purchase time. I never expected conscripts to actually DO anything other than die en masse under the guns of the Germans. However, the reality is that this happens anyway, even with that super-sexy Command Squad out there.
So, I still assert that moving the ability to break suppression to T2 won't break the game, but I do understand that it would remove the Soviets ability to be useful early game in a team match, and that's no fun at all.
You win guys!
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« on: January 28, 2010, 06:46:51 AM »
thebomb, Does Wehr have trouble with American units early game now? No. To this, sir, I humbly disagree. The American early game (if we wish to discuss it) is a challenge to the slower, more defensive Wehr early game. I just can't emphasize enough how devastating it is for Soviets not having retreat. I don't think you realize this. Bring in one pioneer squad and a suppressed Soviet squad is GONE. This is why they NEED the command squad or a retreat option. I'm not trying to re-write the Soviet faction. This decision to get rid of the retreat function by the Mods authors appears to be something they are proud of, and something I think adds quite a bit to the game. I happen to realize, good sir, the impact of having no retreat option. I will not comment on what I feel you do or do not realize. Are you saying that Soviet players can crawl through, while suppressed, through your lines? That's not supposed to happen - like I said, just bring in one pioneer squad (or anything with automatic weapons) and you'll tear anything lying on its stomach to shreds. Opportunity costs. The Soviet units wiggling past an MG will take damage, and a few will be wiped out entirely. However, not all of them will be destroyed unless the opponent is willing to focus all of his efforts toward doing so. That, I imagine, would slow down most efforts to tech up, etc. A pioneer busy mowing down Reds is not, say, capping a point or building a Krieg Barracks. Everybody, I think we're losing sight of what I'm suggesting here. I don't want to get rid of the ability to break suppression! I like having it around! I simply want to make breaking suppression a T2 ability, not something that comes right out of the box. The few critical minutes of stability brought about by MGs bring balance back to the early game, a balance that, I feel, exists already throughout most of the later stages. Just as the Wehr can bring out mortars to counter a stubborn MG nest, so too can the Soviets bring out a Command Squad to render a MG's suppression useless.
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« on: January 28, 2010, 04:44:13 AM »
Thebomb,
The point I'm making is that its surprising the amount of damage the extra units the Soviets can have in the start will do, even to a theoretical "easy to defend" position, say, the bridges of Lyon or Vire River Valley. In those cases, I would think, flatly, that the Soviets are stopped cold early game. Its simply something they cannot do. Axis players will be hard-pressed to advance into territory held by several dozen conscripts so early in the game. By the time enough troops come on line for the Axis player to push, I really do feel a Soviet player of the same skill as the Axis player will have tech'ed up and have access to the Command Squad, which would re-balance the game.
As for the idea that the Axis player can just throw up an indefinitely long wall of MGs, I would argue that such a wall would be thin, and thin walls can be broken, or, in this case, simply crawled past. Combine that with the threat of a US or Brit player rolling out snipers, mortars, or Bren carriers, and it would still be a viable MP option.
Also, having all the extra units, the Soviets can practice just ignoring the Axis units. I've seen my opponents run circles around my troops, letting me use MGs and Volks on their conscripts while their engineers and other conscripts slip past, gobbling up the points I'm defending. The option then is to withdraw troops to re-cap a point, or keep fighting where I stand and risk losing more points. Think of it as water from a toppled glass. You put your hand in front of it, your whole arm, even, but water still flows right around and soaks your trousers.
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« on: January 28, 2010, 03:51:52 AM »
Xeno,
Yes, that IS my idea of balance! You got that right on the button. The mechanic that allows units to crawl away from suppressing units after a short time still works with our lowly conscripts. Besides, at flank range and yellow cover, a conscript squad will sit quite nicely and chew up a MG's time as it shoots at the poor frightened farm-boys from the Urals. Time that could be better spent shooting at a flanking unit, perhaps? The options for a Soviet player to overcome the MG obstacle still present itself in the unique way the Soviets can pump out infantry faster than anyone. However, I really am a big fan of the idea is that early Soviet infantry would be running away from MG positions early game. Spamming MG's might work for a little while, until the Soviet player rolls out command squads and mortars (a higher priority now that its that critical). Give it a test and let me know what you think. Have a buddy spam MG's and give it a real, honest try. I found it still plausible in my few games this afternoon, but I will endeavor to see how badly I can shut down my own idea with yours.
Walphlez, thanks for a courteous reply.
I agree the MG would be a powerful tool for the Germans early game, but considering that it loses much of its usefulness the rest of the game, I think such a relationship between units is still relatively balanced. As for those other options? I really like that idea! A retreat option for pinned units with a long period of being "stuck" near base with a slow movement speed. Interesting idea. I'll experiment with the effects of that sometime (by playing a game and volunteering to have my units linger around base).
CerealKiller,
I'm afraid I'm not certain of what you're suggesting. I'm going to assume your argument is "Leave it as is!". A valid point, considering the time invested in this mod. I'll be sure to pay close attention to how the Devs envisioned the game-play experience to be.
WhiteFlash,
Good thinking! I like that idea too. Teching the abilities, not the unit, might be the ticket. However, it doesn't address the criticism of the first idea that Xeno brings up: the Soviets would have no way to break suppression until T2. This is something I'm OK with, but our opponents do have some valid points concerning MG spamming.
Everyone:
Ok, we've got some good criticism so far. I'm still not totally convinced of my honorable opponent's argument that a T2 Command Squad as-is would break the early game, so if we can keep this discussion going, we could work that out. In the meantime, I'll keep testing your ideas to see if I'm all wrong about this.
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« on: January 27, 2010, 11:08:00 PM »
Greetings, community!
(Skip to the end for a synopsis)
As an amateur modder of COH, when I saw the issues with EF's balance, I tried my hand at tooling around with some of the issues. It seems one of the most hotly debated issue is that of whether or not the opening minutes of a Soviet player's game is too powerful. Generally, I found this to be true, but it took me a while to understand why.
Generally, I find that many of the early balance issues come from the presence of the Command Squad. The ability to break the suppression of troops within the first few minutes of the game really makes defensive weapons (HMGs) useless. Often, I can pile up conscripts, let them get suppressed, and like the floodgates of pwnage, use a Command Squad to charge the whole lot forward, right past the MG, and ignore the thing entirely (if not killing it with massed short-range fire).
Instead of merely complaining about it, I tried tinkering with Corsix's Mod Tools and, just for an experiment, moved the Command Squad to the Soviet's WSC, effectively making the unit a tier-two addition to the team.
Whaddya know? Things worked out nicely! The Soviets were no longer able to rush the field and take tremendous amounts of territory right in the start, giving the Germans ample time to gear up and counter the Soviets for when they became able to break suppression just a few short minutes later.
I even played the game with a friend of mine, first, unmodded EF, then modded EF, and he felt, right away, that the game was more balanced. We both felt much more like this was the Eastern Front, with myself trying desperately at the start just to throw men at the Germans, slowing their advance until the regular army units could show up and turn the tide.
In the first game, I won easily. It was no contest, really, considering my frequent sparring partner and I are roughly on the same skill level. I was able to set up reinforce points and pressed right over that middle bridge in Lyon within the first ten minutes or so, camping out in those two critical territories outside his base.
The second game, however, where we put in place the mod that experimentally moves the Command Squad, I tried to do the same thing again, and failed miserably! Unable to break the suppression, he mowed down my brave soldiers with MGs (and sent Pioneers into the suppressed troops to hasten their demise), and all I could do was throw more men at him just to keep him from advancing. Later, I was able to dig in, tech up, and slowly fight my way, block-by-block, into Lyon and destroy his base thanks to some well-timed Partisan attacks and the assistance of some lovely flamethrowers.
TL;DR: Try moving the Command Squad to a T2 building, leave everything else just as it is. Simple, effective, tested.
[Edit: A simple way to test: simply don't allow yourself to purchase a Command Squad until you get the WSC.]
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