Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Soviet vs Ost Ai  (Read 13639 times)

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 05:07:57 PM »
Speaking of AI, I've got a few observations about the Soviet AI. While generally it is fine and can put up a challenge (mostly by making human wave attacks using insane blobs of Cons+Engineers+Strelky and sometimes launching nice-looking armoured attacks of 3-4 T-34s at once, mixed with various light tanks/assault guns), I've noticed a couple of strange patterns.
1)I've never seen AI equip Strelky with PPSh or DP, it always seem to go with the PTRS. Maybe he's just reacting to me building tanks and vehicles, I dunno. Never seen Guards, Surmovie or Ford GPA neither.
2)Is the AI using the Observer team as intended? I understand there's no way of forcing the computer to use it as a player would (in cover behind enemy lines holding fire), and it seems to think of it as a long range marksman team, but a couple of times I've seen the AI mass 3 observer teams, sneak them to my base while I'm busy elsewhere, and get them to engage my base buildings from outside the base, dealing no damage and possibly getting his units killed by my base defences.
3)I don't know whether it's an AI stuff or a physics/game mechanics issue, but sometimes AI Conscripts burn themselves with their own Molotovs. E.g., when there are a Landser squad and a Cons squad both in green cover firing at each other for across the street, sometime the Conscrpits would throw their Molotov, it would hit the sandbags they are behind, pouring burning petrol all over their own position, burning 3-4 men of the squad before the computer (if we're lucky) pulls the squad out.

1. I can probably reduce the priority then of PTRS, so that they are more likely to upgrade a mixture of both

2. I probably will just disable the observer team for the AI for now until I can get them to work

3. Thats very odd, and shouldnt happen at all with molotovs. that is definitely a bug right there, as molotovs should only explode on impact.


Thanks for the observations

Offline Magyar

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2014, 03:28:47 AM »
A little off-topic, but since we're on the topic of AI I randomly play a match against the PE to test something and I noticed that it simply massed Scout Cars rather than using Panzer Grenadiers. I think the early game PE AI could use a little attention too, if possible.

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2014, 08:09:17 PM »
A little off-topic, but since we're on the topic of AI I randomly play a match against the PE to test something and I noticed that it simply massed Scout Cars rather than using Panzer Grenadiers. I think the early game PE AI could use a little attention too, if possible.

Sure thing. I can give them a few more different starting builds to try

Offline Sigmar

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 06:02:24 PM »
I would like to comment about the AI as well. I have seen the Russians build the ford gpa and guards, though infrequently . This could be because of all the previous requirements to build the guards , or because when I play they tend to go almost always with the commander tree that provides naval troops. The Naval troops I have seen equip both the DP and the antitank rifle. I don't recall the strelky with the pps or dp like the op said . Nor have I seen upgraded engineers. I have seen the Observer team behave in the same manner, basically running around the map occasionally harassing pioneers which they are very good at, and then wondering into the base and getting shot up by-based defenses before retreating.

As far as panzer elite behavior, I have seen almost all scout cars like the Op said as well. It is very uncommon  for them to build general infantry troops until much later in a match if at all, unless it has chosen Luftwaffe . I've also noticed in some games them building multiple munitions trucks and leaving them at their base. I'm talking two, three or more sometimes. I also noticed that the Panzer elite kerk,  once it's get shot it will just sit there and let the other unit destroy it instead of fleeing. As far as command tree choice, the PE is much more varied compared to the Russians.

How does the AI choose which command tree is going to use? Is it random or based on some activities, resources, etc, happening in game?

Overall great job and thanks for continuing to tweak it .

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2014, 08:13:24 PM »
I would like to comment about the AI as well. I have seen the Russians build the ford gpa and guards, though infrequently . This could be because of all the previous requirements to build the guards , or because when I play they tend to go almost always with the commander tree that provides naval troops. The Naval troops I have seen equip both the DP and the antitank rifle. I don't recall the strelky with the pps or dp like the op said . Nor have I seen upgraded engineers. I have seen the Observer team behave in the same manner, basically running around the map occasionally harassing pioneers which they are very good at, and then wondering into the base and getting shot up by-based defenses before retreating.

As far as panzer elite behavior, I have seen almost all scout cars like the Op said as well. It is very uncommon for them to build general infantry troops until much later in a match if at all, unless it has chosen Luftwaffe . I've also noticed in some games them building multiple munitions trucks and leaving them at their base. I'm talking two, three or more sometimes. I also noticed that the Panzer elite kerk, once it's get shot it will just sit there and let the other unit destroy it instead of fleeing. As far as command tree choice, the PE is much more varied compared to the Russians.

How does the AI choose which command tree is going to use? Is it random or based on some activities, resources, etc, happening in game?

Overall great job and thanks for continuing to tweak it .

The AI basically chooses command tree at random, though sometimes it will choose a starting build-order which goes well with a certain command tree, and I chooses that instead

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 10:08:06 PM »
Next patch the AI will be a bit smarter depending on difficulty, and will not rely so much on manpower and munitions bonuses

Offline Ibram Gaunt

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2015, 03:37:26 PM »
Next patch the AI will be a bit smarter depending on difficulty, and will not rely so much on manpower and munitions bonuses

Sorry for Necropost, but does it mean the AI will be less cheating?
I don´t have a real problem that the AI gets resource bonuses (as already in vCoH), but what really bugs me, and others i co-op with, the (?almost?) non existend Fog of War for the AI. The AI shoots at out our units over maximum shooting distance without use of hidden snipers or observer teams. Depending on the map, it happened many times that our forces got wiped out before we could get close to them. Or he´s shooting at fortifications/units, a normal player couldn´t have seen yet.

Tl;dr The AI knows and sees everything without scouting or recon.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:08:05 PM by Ibram Gaunt »

Offline nikitkagood

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 09:46:00 PM »
So true. I am agree with it. I played two games on the same map for Ost vs Soviet and i lost both of them. THEY PASSED THROUGH 4 MG'S AND ONE MORTAR WITH ONLY INFANTRY! And it was only medium difficulty bot! He pressed me near base and i was without resources. Bot is too stupid to build tanks and there was a small chance to do something. So i bought rocket arty. Twice. And twice it was destroyed before reached the base. Because we have very "cool" thing named "appearance from the border of a map" So annoying. And there what I think: mg-34 is too weak, heavy mg-34 bunkers is too bad, soviets OP because they have too much different and isn't so expensive infantry and too much different tanks (need anti-infantry? pick t-90 or t-70; need smth medium? yep, we have two not bad variants; need AT or AT+anti-inf.? we have 3 su's, one isu, is-2 and more; ~1/3 of tanks can be upgraded!; ost have good tanks too but you need very long research it and i never received them because Soviet infantry), AT rifles is too good (AND IT IS PENETRATING STUG'S FRONT ARMOR! HOW??? if it is penetrating tiger's front armor i am gonna kill myself), two katyushas for 650 or 550 man power is too cheap, soviet scout cars is too strong. I am not an expert so i can be wrong but Soviet still crushing Ost.
P.S Sorry for my English if it incorrect somewhere or everywhere.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 09:48:41 PM by nikitkagood »

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2015, 11:50:48 PM »
If needed I can decrease the difficulty of easy and standard AI if that helps.

Offline CoHtaku

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Atterete Dominatum
    • View Profile
    • CoH: European Conflagration
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2015, 01:01:35 AM »
Hi 'Robotnik',

Would it be at all possible to add more difficulty options for the artificial intelligence, to better suit players of varying skill levels? I, personally, would like to see an 'easiest' level which doesn't let the A.I. win at all (doesn't capture victory points or assault the base), for the purposes of map testing.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

syntax_error

  • Guest
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2015, 10:49:11 AM »
HI cohtaku.

it s probable dev time is precious. Can I suggest instead, if it s for map testing, to build your own map and allow you formidable advantage and/or nerf to your foe ?

That could be high ressource points for you, poor for it. Lot of raw and weapons in front of your hq, too cramped command territory for rnnemy in order it cant build a full base ect ... variations are are numerous.

If you re unfamiliar with worldbuilder mp me, I can probably produce such map in short time.

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

  • Developer
  • Mr. Spam
  • *
  • Posts: 1961
  • Forum historian
    • View Profile
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2015, 09:07:18 PM »
Hi 'Robotnik',

Would it be at all possible to add more difficulty options for the artificial intelligence, to better suit players of varying skill levels? I, personally, would like to see an 'easiest' level which doesn't let the A.I. win at all (doesn't capture victory points or assault the base), for the purposes of map testing.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

Unfortunately not, Relic has it hardcoded so that there is only the 4 difficulty settings

Offline CoHtaku

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Atterete Dominatum
    • View Profile
    • CoH: European Conflagration
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2015, 04:02:29 AM »
Hi syntax_error,

I mean in order to test my own maps, to make sure such things as terrain deformation, building construction and unit pathfinding as well as the territory/resource layout are functioning correctly. When testing for these things i am of course not playing 'properly', and as such can be beaten by even an easy A.I. if i'm not careful (especially in Eastern Front, which seems to gain some perverse pleasure from dancing on the players grave). As such it would be useful to have an A.I. level which techs up and fights, but does not actually win.

However this is unfortunately impossible as Dr. Eggman has mentioned above, but such is life.

Thank you for offering to make a map for me, though. That's most kind of you but it's not needed.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

syntax_error

  • Guest
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 10:15:21 AM »
Hi

My bad here, I think I could even have been seen as offending that was not the goal. I understood maptesting in a larger consideration, including testing units value one vs an other, weapon efficiency vs particular target ect ...

Now it s clear for me your a mapmaker that want to test it s own map, I can only suggest from the original post to make copy of the original map and add in the command territory you will play instant generic fuel ammo Lucky strike ect in order to boost your dev, at AI expand.

The only other solution closest to your original wish is to use an alternative dataattrib, with different value for AI. however requirement would be to use an other installation, such as an older CD one to make your test. More fastidious is to have the two files Inside the same game Under different name. You will have to rename both each time you want to test and revert opreration for regular game.

Offline CoHtaku

  • Ingenery
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Atterete Dominatum
    • View Profile
    • CoH: European Conflagration
Re: Soviet vs Ost Ai
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2015, 04:47:40 AM »
Fret not, my friend. Nary a word in your post could be construed as offensive. :)

However i am not too skilled with these newfangled contraptions known as computers, so it's not so easy for me to modify the game, but thank you for the suggestion.

Cheers, CoHtaku.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 11:36:58 PM by CoHtaku »