Panzer IV as a reward unit?

[Cranialwizard]

Nope, we are not going to add the Panzer IV as reward unit of the Panzer III.

Well that's a shame.

No. U have to see that the Pz III was the backbone of german Panzer-Divisionen in 1941 and 1942 and for most divisions in 1943, too.
Ausf. J was able to fight against T-34 (at the moment i'm working on a T-34 project for the german tank museum so i have read a lot
of stuff about the T-34) and with the upcoming Panther PzIII was the ideal base for a new support tank. StuG cant do this any longer and
other infantry support weapons like the Brummbär werent available in sigificant numbers.

Out of my view the PzIII is one of the coolest new weapons for the Ostheer; A small but powerful weapon against light red armour and red infantry.

I never wanted to replace the PzIII I just wanted the Panzer IV as a reward unit, as in swap in and out.

And what other tank was in service for the entire war and was relevant in every campaign it participated in? Overall, the Panzer IV contributed more to the German war effort everywhere it fought. The Panzer III on the other hand was obsolete in 1940, the only reason it lasted so long on the eastern front was because early Russian tank crews had no radio equipment and ofcourse the Flak 36 did most of the tank fighting until Panzer IVs recieved the L43. You cannot seriously tell me the Panzer III had a superior track record or anything like that. It is a neat little tank but an Ostheer without the Panzer IV is like the BEF with their Bren carriers.

Lord Rommel is a WWII historian. He probably knows a lot more than both you and I combined about the Eastern Front.

I'd stick with his word.

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

Nope, we are not going to add the Panzer IV as reward unit of the Panzer III.

Well that's a shame.

No. U have to see that the Pz III was the backbone of german Panzer-Divisionen in 1941 and 1942 and for most divisions in 1943, too.
Ausf. J was able to fight against T-34 (at the moment i'm working on a T-34 project for the german tank museum so i have read a lot
of stuff about the T-34) and with the upcoming Panther PzIII was the ideal base for a new support tank. StuG cant do this any longer and
other infantry support weapons like the Brummbär werent available in sigificant numbers.

Out of my view the PzIII is one of the coolest new weapons for the Ostheer; A small but powerful weapon against light red armour and red infantry.

I never wanted to replace the PzIII I just wanted the Panzer IV as a reward unit, as in swap in and out.

And what other tank was in service for the entire war and was relevant in every campaign it participated in? Overall, the Panzer IV contributed more to the German war effort everywhere it fought. The Panzer III on the other hand was obsolete in 1940, the only reason it lasted so long on the eastern front was because early Russian tank crews had no radio equipment and ofcourse the Flak 36 did most of the tank fighting until Panzer IVs recieved the L43. You cannot seriously tell me the Panzer III had a superior track record or anything like that. It is a neat little tank but an Ostheer without the Panzer IV is like the BEF with their Bren carriers.

Lord Rommel is a WWII historian. He probably knows a lot more than both you and I combined about the Eastern Front.

I'd stick with his word.

That doesn't make him immune to having a bias, maybe he just hates the Panzer IV I don't know, but everything I said is pretty common knowledge of WWII armoured warfare, you don't have to be an expert to understand why the German high command SWITCHED roles of the Panzer III and Panzer IV, and ended production of the Panzer III in '43. But I guess he knew more than them too, eh? 

Oh, and Rommel the reason the Panzer III was still in service in 1943 was because Germany was desperate for any and all operatating tanks on the eastern front, they took whatever they could get. By 1943 the Panzer III M was....a joke.

[Killar]

PanzerIV might appear in some other form. The reason that P4 is not main tank are gameplay reasons. It will not change.

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

PanzerIV might appear in some other form. The reason that P4 is not main tank are gameplay reasons. It will not change.

Yeah I understand that, the discussion now is about something completely different.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Well...
PzIII wasnt obsoleted in 1940
It was obsolted in 1943 as main battle tank - like u said. But PzIII wasnt obsoleted because of the red army tanks. It was obsolted because PzIV and Panther were much stronger than PzIII. THATs the reason why PzIII was armed with the old 7,5cm L/24 gun of the first PzIV generation. PzIV and III changed their roles (like u said too). PzIV became the new german battle tank and PzIII a support tank (watch the first KstNs of the german Tiger-Abteilungen - they used the PzIII for anti infantry purposes). And with the productionstart of the new Panther tank and the fact that the StuG was transfered onto the PzIV chassis (because of the bombing of the PzIII chassis production factories) the old PzIII wasent need any longer because all his roles were replaced by new and modern stuff (I think when the allies wont have bombed the PzIII chassis production the PzIII chassis would have be produced much longer...).

And keep in mind; with the hollow charge shells the 7,5cm L/24 was able to deal quiet easy with the T-34 and other tanks

Other point is; the T-34 degraded during the war. Soviets need a lot of tanks to reenforce their tank forces. So soviet factories were ordered to produce the T-34 faster and faster. Because of this the factories decided to take iron of a poor quality. The consequence: T-34s armour could by penetrated by smaller calibers. Suddenly the 5cm KwK of PzIII was able to deal with the T-34 in a 1-vs-1. Keep in mind that soviet union lost more than 75% of their produced T-34 and most tanks were destroyed by the german tanks.
And keep one thing in mind when u try to compare soviet and german tanks: Soviets werent interessted in winning or killing german tanks. They are just interessted in a permanent aggressiv attacking tank force and for this force they just need tanks...

All in all i cant see any big problems between our points of view...?

Some personal notes:
I like the PzIV very much. I like most of the tanks of my motherland.
BUT the reason for not implementing PzIV is - like Killar already said - the fact that Ostheer wont need this tank.
They got an early anti-soviet-armour tank (the PzIII), they got effective tank destroyers (Marder II) and they got
strong late-ingame tanks with the Panther and the Tiger.
So there is still no more place for the PzIV.
And as reward it wont work because PzIII had a different ingame concept then PzIV.

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

Well...
PzIII wasnt obsoleted in 1940
It was obsolted in 1943 as main battle tank - like u said. But PzIII wasnt obsoleted because of the red army tanks. It was obsolted because PzIV and Panther were much stronger than PzIII. THATs the reason why PzIII was armed with the old 7,5cm L/24 gun of the first PzIV generation. PzIV and III changed their roles (like u said too). PzIV became the new german battle tank and PzIII a support tank (watch the first KstNs of the german Tiger-Abteilungen - they used the PzIII for anti infantry purposes). And with the productionstart of the new Panther tank and the fact that the StuG was transfered onto the PzIV chassis (because of the bombing of the PzIII chassis production factories) the old PzIII wasent need any longer because all his roles were replaced by new and modern stuff (I think when the allies wont have bombed the PzIII chassis production the PzIII chassis would have be produced much longer...).

I'll agree with you that the StuG III was just as important as the Panzer IV on the eastern, so in that way the Panzer III chassis became quite useful.

And keep in mind; with the hollow charge shells the 7,5cm L/24 was able to deal quiet easy with the T-34 and other tanks

Wow, this is new information to me. How many hollow shells was every Panzer III N equipped with?

Other point is; the T-34 degraded during the war. Soviets need a lot of tanks to reenforce their tank forces. So soviet factories were ordered to produce the T-34 faster and faster. Because of this the factories decided to take iron of a poor quality. The consequence: T-34s armour could by penetrated by smaller calibers. Suddenly the 5cm KwK of PzIII was able to deal with the T-34 in a 1-vs-1. Keep in mind that soviet union lost more than 75% of their produced T-34 and most tanks were destroyed by the german tanks.
And keep one thing in mind when u try to compare soviet and german tanks: Soviets werent interessted in winning or killing german tanks. They are just interessted in a permanent aggressiv attacking tank force and for this force they just need tanks...

Good point, I recall the same thing happing to German heavy armour later in the war, metal production was poorer than in 1942.

Some personal notes:
I like the PzIV very much. I like most of the tanks of my motherland.
BUT the reason for not implementing PzIV is - like Killar already said - the fact that Ostheer wont need this tank.
They got an early anti-soviet-armour tank (the PzIII), they got effective tank destroyers (Marder II) and they got
strong late-ingame tanks with the Panther and the Tiger.
So there is still no more place for the PzIV.
And as reward it wont work because PzIII had a different ingame concept then PzIV.

Fair enough, I guess I can still use Wehr and pretend they are also Ostheer, lol.

How about a Panzer 38(t) as a reward unit? Cheaper to make, and decent vs. light vehicles and infantry without upgrades? Or are you planning on using the 38(t) for the foreign support doctrine?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

About Pz38 t: We have some plans for this tank

[Jeff 'Robotnik' W.]

panzer III was a pretty good tank, though rommel already explained why before i even got a chance lol.

yeah it might not be able to stand up to a sherman or t34 one on one, they had much better crew training than either the soviets or americans when they entered with their new t34's and shermans

and yes the short 75mm had HEAT shells (and some nasty canister shells too), which could penetrate 75mm at all ranges, though because of the low muzzle velocity and short barrel it could be hard to hit moving targets and had poor accuracy at longer ranges

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

About Pz38 t: We have some plans for this tank

At least some good news! Sorry I guess I am something of a Panzer IV fanatic.

[Pac-Fish]

We all love Panzer IV . I specifically love the Panzer IV. Ausf. H. Looks so bad ass, especially in groups

[Cranialwizard]

We all love Panzer IV . I specifically love the Panzer IV. Ausf. H. Looks so bad ass, especially in groups

Yea, Ausf. H has a certain coolness factor. Ausf. J has a futuristic look to it though,

[Tankbuster]

It is about as futuristic as a Tank without sloped armor can get.





There goes the Devil in disguise.

[ubermensche]

I guess I can understand why people want a Pz IV: they think that the Ostheer won't have a true adequate tank to counter the Red Russian tide (as the Pz III quickly turned out to be inadequate, even with the 50mm L/60). But than again, I think that this adds to the challenge of playing with Ostheer and needless to say that they have others vehicles that do the job (the Marder, the StuG and the Panther, as well as doctrine specific units). You guys should probably just post a big sticky that there will be no Pz IV for Ostheer in 1000 years and close the discussion.

Oh and question: will the 75mm stubby Pz III be the same as the PE Pz IV?

[Killar]

Oh and question: will the 75mm stubby Pz III be the same as the PE Pz IV?

i think so yes

[Otto Halfhand]

Joining in the Pz3J discussion:
On June 21 1941 ~ 1200 Pz3s rolled into Russia They varied from the 8mm thk armor/37mm Pz3ds to the Pz3J/141. Although the Pz3j/141 was introduced into service in April 1941 very few were equipped with the specified 50mm/L60 cannon due to production difficulties. Most were eguipped with a shorter 50mm gun (don't remember the caliber). Maybe 100 Pz3J/L60s went to AfriKa  where they were known as Pz3 "Specials". When Hitler found out about the "Shorts"in Dec 1941 he was furious and ordered that henceforth all Pz3J's would be equipped with the L60 version of the gun. They started rolling off the line in spring of 1942 around the same time as the StuGg 75mm/L48 first appeared. The late model Pz3J/50mm/L60 were designated 141/1. Curiously Guderian was disgraced by Hitler in December 1941 as well. (He ignored Hitler's "not one step back" from Moscow order). Guderian became Panzer truppen inspector general and advocated for the use of Assault guns, both as a counter to the T34 and to increase production. until 1945 about 7500  StuG'3s were produced compared to 1500 Pz3Js. IIRC the StuG3 series was credited with more kills of enemy tanks than any other German AFV type. (I don't have the replay for this one but IIRC).

Regarding the Pz3N/75mm/L24s (which were the same weapon used on the Pz4D in PE Killar). Lord Rommel has mentioned that the H38 ammo available for the 75/24 was easily capable of penetrating T34/76 armor at 500m. (and much farther too but penetration uses 500m as a bench mark).The T34/76 had equally powerfull penetration at similar ranges . The difference between the two tanks was muzzle velocity . 75/L24 ~450 fps. The 76.2mm gun had a muzzle velocity of 600-900 fps. The 75 mm shell would hit in 3 sec. the 76.2.. shell in 1.5-2 secs. Basically whoever shoots first wins. In general the panzer crews were more crack than their Soviet counterparts and with their fug5 radios coordinated more effectively. Lord Rommel's comments about Soviet Tank quality are right on too. The T34s rolling out of STZ factory,(Stalingrad), were equipped with wooden mallets to allow their crews to shift gears.  All of this is fairly irrelevant however since the PZ3Ns were mostly assigned to AI support for the Heavy Tiger battalions. They didn't really need a lot of help against Soviet Armor. Lord Rommel, help me out here. the H38 ammo was that hollow point Tungsten? I don't know.

To weigh-in on the Pz4 discussion. I support the use of the Pz 4 as a reward unit. the same logic used for early AT/late AI used for the Pz3 can be turned on its head for for the Pz4. Early AI-Pz4D/75mm/L24 late Pz4G/75mm/L48. Start with the Pz4D upgrade available when the weapons improvement upgrade is researched to Pz4G. Shouldn't be a balance problem both the D and G are available from T4 now. Both models are made and animated. IIRC Pz3Js upgrade individually. If the Devteam wants this unit in Ostheer as a rewards unit it will be the easiest one by far 2 skins required.

Should the developers choose to go this route I have one request. Make the Same unit available to PE as a rewards unit for the Pz4D. The French-Letter opener sorta fills the AI/At role but is it too much to ask to have a German AT/Tank in PE's T4?

The one on the left is a Pz3H. The One one the right is a Pz3J/141 note the gun calibers. Fall of 1941.