why did the krauts loze the war

[Loupblanc]

 Bastex : LOL No, I did not hijack your account. Sorry
 
 Luz777 : Yea, Hermann Goering. Interesting character.
 Almost necessary to get Luftwaffe off the ground. But,
 I think his story is the same as that of Nazi Germany and
 Roman empire. Their success got the best of them, they
 then got fat, lazy, complacent, and it all came crashing
 down

[Ryousan]

With the exception that the Roman Empire lasted for centuries and Nazi Germany just twelve years....

[ford_prefect]

I like the Totenkopf simbol because it has the emblem of prussian hussars WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH NAZIS.

Can your take me seriously now man?

when did I say anything about Nazis?

[Ryousan]

when did I say anything about Nazis?

Most people have the tendecy of associate them...

[ford_prefect]

when did I say anything about Nazis?

Most people have the tendecy of associate them...

nice spelling did you mean tendency?

[Ryousan]

nice spelling did you mean tendency?

stupid keyboard...

And yeah thats what I meant

[Bigpop]

I read about the first 6 posts and saw that the whole brainwash of modern history has done a fine job in BSing our youth.

The first post was fantastic, with lots of information and points, so instead of replaying to other posts, I will just reply to that one 


There are several reasons the Germans lost the war. Manpower is certainly a reason. Production. Tactics. All these played parts. I think it's virtually impossible to say any ONE of these things hurt them more then the other. I'm an American and am big enough to admit that WWII was won or lost in the East, not the West. That doesn't mean the Brits, French, Dutch, Americans and later, Italians didn't contribute or suffer badly but they faced a shadow of what the Russians faced.

The Dunkirk incident certainly was a blunder, based on politics. Hitler allowed Goering to play politics on the battlefield and it gave the British some much needed breathing room. This however could have been over come, in my opinion.

Fighting on too many fronts is really the biggest issue. You can talk about man power and productions, all of which are important, but Hitler stretched his armies out too thin and left too much unfinished business in too many areas. For example, Dunkirk, which gave the British a strong force to build off of and recuperate with. Africa was also, doomed to fail. As famed (and deservedly so) as the Afrika Korps was, they were never going to win and the BEST Hitler could hope for was a stale mate. Now, obviously hindsight is 20/20 but Rommel was doomed in Africa, especially since the Allied air power was so vast.

Italy's incompetence (no offense to any Italians!) was an extra and un-needed strain on the German war machine. These vast areas could not be effectively defended by Italian troops which resulted in Germany being forced to pump productions, supplies, men and material into other theaters of war which in turn detracted from the important areas such as the West Wall and Eastern Front.

The Allied countries always talk about the Axis of Evil but to be honest the Axis weren't anything close to being helpful to each other. Japan for example, had prevented Stalin from taking his crack Siberian Divisions from Russia's vast hinterland and using them against the Wehrmacht in the 1941. Once Stalin's spies had informed him that Japan planned on attacking Pearl Harbor, Stalin wasn't concerned about them helping Germany by attacking the other side of Russia. This allowed Stalin to move a massive amount of divisions to the Russian Western Front. These units ended up being the divisions, corps and armies that were built up to make the massive counter offensives for Russia. The point here is that Italy failed to protect their own borders and Japan was too consumed with attacking America. This caused the Axis (not just Germany) to be spread too thin and unable or unwilling to help each other out.

A personal opinion of mine which continues to grow with research is the battle of Crete (Operation Mercury)! It was an operation where German Fallschirmjagers took the island but were attacked and effective cut down by local Greek resistance. They succeeded but at great costs. Hitler swore he would never allow his troops to be thrown into a situation like that again. For the rest of the war, most of the Fallschirmjagers served simply as infantry divisions with airborne training. The reason this is key is because for the Western Allies, some of our greatest and most famed divisions were airborne! We were able to utilize these divisions to harass and interferer with German supplies, transportation and communications. They were incredibly effective. The Russians never faced that extra aspect during the German invasion! As bad as things went for Russia initially, they never dealt with any divisions of Fallschirmjagers harassing their supply, communication or transportation. They never had to worry about German Fallschirmjagers disrupting their reinforcements. Our airborne divisions EXCELLED at this and caused massive logistical issues for the Wehrmacht. The Russians never had to deal with those logistical nightmares, which almost certainly would have hindered them because A) they were logistically NOT prepared for war and thus would have had more problems as the war continued that they would have had to adept to, which is very hard in that situation and B) as I previously mentioned, many of the Russian divisions that won the war were Guard units and Siberian units. A vast majority of which came from the far eastern reaches of the Russian empire! The Fallschirmjagers could have slowed this progress and caused massive issues for the Russians, especially because of the land mass of Russia, allowing German troops to drop in and harass virtually unknown! It was a logistical nightmare for the German high command to account for our airborne divisions and it certainly would have been for the Russians to account for the German ones.

The sheer lack of manpower in Germany. This goes along with being stretched too thin. In Paul Carrol's book he states that all 3 army groups needed at least one more ARMY in each group to successfully execute the plans given by the German high command. Basically, this means they just didn't have enough men in the areas needed, at the TIME needed, to strike the big blows such as Operation Typhoon, the invasion of the Crimea (where the city of Sevastopol held out for 250 days from October 30, 1941 until July 4, 1942, when the Germans finally were able to captured the city!) and the huge failure of Army Group North in the area of Leningrad.

As far as production, by late '41 and early '42 the Main German Battle tank was no longer the Panzer III but the Panzer IV. I don't have his book in front of me but the difference in productions is outstanding. Something like 4,000 Panzer IVs were made in '41, while a FAR greater number of T-34s were made. And the T-34 was superior to the Panzer IV, even with the PIV's latest upgrades to combat the strong Russian armor. So not only was Germany out produced that year, but the quality of what was being produced was also in favor of the Russians. Even with that being said, none of it should have been a factor IF Hitler would have stuck to his OWN original plan. Instead he diverted troops, material and resources one several occasions, moving several Panzer groups around carelessly and refusing to attack Moscow in September as he had planned, but instead sending everything to the south. That coupled with the fact that they hadn't take Leningrad, which was the first major objective of Operation Barbarossa, DIdn't take Moscow when it was ripe for the taking and never took Stalingrad means all 3 major cities eluded Hitler's grasp because he, himself, changed his objectives of a campaign he claimed would only take 6 weeks. 

[GI John 412]

While what you say is true, I think that without Russia the Allies still had a fighting chance.

The invasion of France and perhaps that of Italy would not have happened until much later without the Russians help.  Because of these delays we might have not ever even invaded!

With the Manhattan project being unaffected by the wars progress, working Nuclear weapons would have still been procured by July 16, 1945.( The date of the trinity test.)

Without nukes we may have lost, but with them all of Berlin would be radioactive dust along with Hitler's bones. 

[Bigpop]

While what you say is true, I think that without Russia the Allies still had a fighting chance.

A chance, but very slim and it would have ONLY have been in the project you mention below...nuclear weapons. That being said we would never have used Nukes against Germany. While America is it's own country we were settled and founded by several European countries. Like it or not we act and fight like Europeans (maybe with a twist  ). Japan isn't centrally located like Germany is, smack dab in the middle of a continent. The fallout would not only have effected Germany but France, Belgium, Austria, Romania, etc etc (basically TONS of other countries!). That alone would have been a deterrent but on top of that since we fight in the European fashions we also show the same respect and honor that European etiquette suggests. That means (imo) even if Germany would have been isolated and no one else would have been affected, we wouldn't have dropped an A-Bomb on them (unless Hitler first had nukes  ).
 

The invasion of France and perhaps that of Italy would not have happened until much later without the Russians help.  Because of these delays we might have not ever even invaded!

We couldn't have. Think about how close Operation Overlord was to failure. Some historians believe if Rommel would have been allowed to have the divisions in reserve under his direct command the invasion would have failed. If you take that opinion and, in an alternative reality we exam this with the possibility that the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact wasn't broken, that means Hitler (who invaded Russia with roughly 3.5 MILLION men) would have easily fortified Western Europe against Allied invasions. Italy and France would have been so well defended it was crazy. This would also have allowed for a much more successful German invasion of Africa. The Western Allies only faced a small percentage of the German Wehrmacht, where as the Russians faced about 90% of it! Along with that the Luftwaffe would have been much stronger, being able to defend the armies better against Allied Air power because all the Air Armies would have been stationed in Germany/France/Italy instead of spread out all over Europe.

 

With the Manhattan project being unaffected by the wars progress, working Nuclear weapons would have still been procured by July 16, 1945.( The date of the trinity test.)

Without nukes we may have lost, but with them all of Berlin would be radioactive dust along with Hitler's bones.

Agreed, but I already pointed out my opinion on that situation earlier in my reply 

[GI John 412]

We did not know about the adverse effects that nuclear weapons had on the surrounding area at that time. ( aka fallout)  Most of the scientists on the Project wanted to nuke Germany because many of them were Jewish.  In fact a petition was made by some to not nuke Japan because they felt that only Germany deserved such a devastating weapon.

Yes, Truman would have dropped the bomb. 

That alone would have been a deterrent but on top of that since we fight in the European fashions we also show the same respect and honor that European etiquette suggests.

Oh yeah, etiquette went out the window when they killed 6 million Jews.  Just a reminder that the Holocaust happened, and we knew about it in 1942.

[Bigpop]

I don't think we knew about in '42. The Holocaust isn't my specialty however, so I could be wrong, i'm much more knowledgeable about the war, production, logistics etc etc.

That being said KNOWING about it and suspecting some foul play are different IMO. Things had been going on since about 1933 but none of those things were the whole sale slaughter of Jewish families and others by the mass concentration camps where they were basically thrown into ovens (not making light, just simply saying the brutal honest truth). That practice didn't start till later. When soldiers and officers found the concentration camps they were taken aback. They knew Hitler had hated the Jewish community but didn't think he had gone THAT far.

I find it amazing that they had no idea what fallout was. You would think with all the formulas and testing that they would have at least ANTICIPATED something along these lines. Kinda crazy if thats true.

I'm glad they didn't drop the bomb on Germany. I wish they wouldn't have on Japan. It sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not some tree hugging, peace loving hippie by any means  but when you study HOW badly Japan was already torn apart by our endless bombing runs you quickly find out that basically 80% of their infrastructure was gone, the civilians were war ravaged and THEN we dropped the bomb. The actual damage was minimal. The big reason for it was Psychology really. But to get back on point about Germany, not all Germans were Nazi and nuking them would have caused more collateral damage then any good that would have came from it.

Just my opinion anyhow. 

[GI John 412]

We know now how horrible it would have been for all of Europe but at the time, without all the post war studying, we would have done it.  There is no doubt in my mind.

[Bigpop]

We know now how horrible it would have been for all of Europe but at the time, without all the post war studying, we would have done it.  There is no doubt in my mind.

Well with that, good thing we didn't lol because we would have been looked at in a VERY bad light after, even by our allies!

[GI John 412]

Yeah, I'll drink to that.

To peace.  To Russia.  To this mod.

Let us play war so most of us don't have to.

[Loupblanc]

 Amen to that.
 I'd rather PLAY way than for REAL war to go on.
 We are all brothers.

 A lot of things I could say right now, but it would take
 a loup-sized post and I'm not in the mood right now