My balance input! (Big Post)

[bavbav]

Hey, first id like to say great job on the mod I enjoy playing russians or vs them even if they are very diffrent.

Ive played about 50 1v1 games half in 1.0, half in 1.1 patch. balance is better now, but things could be improved. I dont think Ive used some units or abilitys enough so Ill miss a few things. I am like lvl 16 with all 4 coh armys in 1v1 auto if that matters, not the best, maybe one day.

I need to say that I will only propose changes that dont alter game mechanics, its a long post. However some problems from game mechanics first:

RECREWING:

 Its good that russians cant, but it would really really be nice if they could recrew their own weapons, at gun and mortar specificaly. But another problem is Axis recrewing. See it takes 4 mans to recrew either at gun or mortar and PE then almoast always pays the full price when they steal. Unless they man with Luftwaffe squad, because it has 5 man. But wehr has it easy. I propose to Increse remanning to 5 man so Wehr aswell will have to pay full price when stealing. In that case, the only exception for Axis would be Pios, only 120 mp, but then again, theyd have to reinforce up 3 remaing members, so remaning with pios would also cost more than 200 mp.

RETREATING:

Propaganda: 4 cp Propaganda War from Terror and Force Retreat from Wehr Officer doesnt work on russian squad, presumably because they dont have the mechanic.

Assault nade: similar to propaganda, because russians cant retreat and btw, the fireup abilitys russian have do NOT help vs assault nades. Once they are assault, they simply die. You cannot fireup out of stun.

Also another thing are Goliaths, they are extremly effective vs Russians for obvious reasons

FIX: A clear fix would be to intruduce a retreat mechanic to russians, but a very limited one. Something like British retreat to Captain is (you cannot retreat all the time) giving this ability to all squads so they can retreat to Command Squad. And Command Squad to retreat to HQ. Or simply every Squad to HQ. Alternative to this would be retreat to HQ, but every time u do, 1 maybe 2 squad members are executed (depends on squad)

TECHING:

fine i guess, but only one problem, u get T34 when u hit 100 fuel. Because everyone will build a 100 mp rax at start it counts as 2 building and hence you get T34 and 100 fuel. Make a requirement for T34 to be second building ONLY. So that T34 would come at 150 fuel which is equal to sherman etc, which costs them 140 fuel (I do not count starting 15 fuel, because that is spent on rax).

However now that rax cost 100 mp 0 fuel and starting fuel is 25, that removed the problem of needing only 25 fuel for second building which you could achieve with engi spam and then make snipers.. thats good. Also it you cant just spam to gather 75 fuel and build tanks. But now it somehow limits staring build order down to rax and only unit, Conscripts.

To mix build orders up abit, i suggest giving back 25 starting fuel, but add a 25 fuel cost to Command Squad. While it may not make sense that they cost fuel, this WILL help build order out. Because then you can go fast wsc, but you will not have the help of Command Squad on he field, only Conscripts. Or How about rax cost 10 fuel and Command Squad 15 with starting fuel 25. Now youd have lots of options. Engi spam for 25 and get fast wsc. Engi spam 75 fuel and get fast tank depot!, or maybe build Command Squad to help engis, but no rax and go fast wsc. or contrary, only rax with Conscript, but no Command Squad.

Also the armory cost of 100 mp is pretty lot. Since Soviets dont use fuel on anything really, but tanks, a fuel price for Armory would be nice too. 25-50 fuel? That would mix build order up even more, while at the same time it gives Sovs something to spend fuel on


UNITS:

- Command Squad

PROBLEM 1: it is simply too strong. Doesnt die and is the strongest dmg dealing unit for antiinf until you get 50 fuel so you can build strelky or snipers. Is that right? The way i see it, command squad is basicly like Lt for Brits, but unlike Lt, it doesnt die and deals high dmg. Also kills any bike or scourt car start because its so strong. However if it were to have say a 15 fuel cost, it may actualy be alright

FIX: either reduce their hp alot or reduce their dmg they simply cannot be that good. This squad is the reason why soviets can secure 3/4 early game still even in patch 1.1, unless u make it cost fuel..

PROBLEM 2: arty kills neutral garisson buildings. Admitelly less
than in 1.0 but can still instagib an mg in a house.

FIX: well reduce dmg or number of mortars

- Conscripts:

PROBLEM 1: their upgrade costs 200 munitions. Same as other infantry upgrades (engis, strelsky, guards). So when i get my first 200 munis I am bound to have 150 fuel (u usualy have same fuel and muni income anyway) so well, why should I upgrade Conscipts or Strelky if I can upgrade Guards and have superior infantry? Also Conscripts that you build early game when upgraded you are left with bunch of half upgraded once if u preserve them. So once u do upgrade you should Build new Conscripts, but why? same upgrade cost to guards, comes at same time and guards cots only 100 mp more, but are 3x better.

FIX: very simple, make Conscript upgrade Cost 50 munis. Also right nwo they cost 18 to reinforce which is more than strelky or engis. Why? This also ties to the second problem:

PROBLEM 2: Russia has NO counter early game to garissons. Now u can abuse the too strong Command Squad and use it for meat-shield and Conscripts to fire at the buildind, but thats it. Now Command Squad should get nerf in power, but then what? What is the counter to garrisons? Answer is Conscripts with molotovs, but they come at 200 munis and that is midgame. Making Conscript upgrade say 60 munis would make them able to throw molotovs, and at same time they would be fully upgraded either. For that ud need new Conscirpts. Also new upgraded Conscipts (not old ones upgraded) would be cool if they throw 2 molotovs, like Guards do. Also if Conscript upgrade costs 200 munis like now, mortars come way earlyer to counter garrisons

- Strelky:

PROBLEM: same as with Conscripts. Why would i pay 200 munis for inferior squad to Guards. When I get 200 munis I have T3 tech available and i simply make infantry that doesnt need fireup abilitys to counter supression and has lots of grenades. also smgs....

FIX: make their upgrade cost like 100-150 munis. They are inf for midgame.

- Guards:

PROBLEM: to differentiate them from other infantry units and also fact that theyre supposedly lategame inf, they are too cheap to get

FIX: make their upgrade cost 250-300 munis.

- Enginery:

PROBLEM: Although i still find them strong in firepower unupgraded they seem pretty much ok now. But their upgrade cots 200 munis. Cost is justifyed however, because they get armor+mine detectors+satchels+smgs and combined with 2 cp Urban doctrine ability, 2 flamers for 50 mun. Well problem is, this is pio spam 2.0. With upgrade they are superior to vetted pios with flamers. They essential cost 150 mp 50 mun (30 mp more than 1 pio flamer) but they get 1 more flamer, mine detector that makes them immune to mines and free satchels to throw. That means they counter infantry and bunkers and extremly annoying, they can even base rape because if u spam them, theres many satchels and flamers are cheap anways. You dont need to spend any munis on other inf upgrades, they are enough so u have munis for flamers easy

FIX: First, make Flamers cost at least 75 munis and second increase Satchel cooldown by alot. It Also wouldnt hurt, if upgraded Engenery would cost 200 mp.

- Sniper Team:

PROBLEM 1: while their cost is good now, they still need some tweeking. Would be really nice if they have traces when they fire and also warning cue; sniper detected. You know, like normal snipers do.

PROBLEM 2: Sniper FOO artillery. A very high problem, one of the most imba things right now aside from Engenery with Flamers. This is simply bad. We all know British like to abuse this particular ability with their Lts and Cpts. But for them it costs 150 munis, is doctrine 2 cp and while they may have high muni income, its still less spammable that Russian Sniper Team Arty. Its costs only 100 munis and every sniper gets it, new or old. Then it is free to use and is simply game breaking. This also makes sniper counter buildings, emplacements and base buildings aswell, especialy combined with Command Squad arty and upgraded Engenery

FIX: Just replace FOO arty with some other arty. Alternativly, make it have bit longer delay when it falls. But I suspect problems with that. There are 2 infantry artillerys ingame, wehr Officer one (that Command Squad has) and British Officers FOO (that Sniper Teams have). Just I dont know, maybe just make Sniper Team use Command Squad arty or something. Also even then, the 100 mun cost would be questionable. Needs to be 150 mun.

- RPDG or whatever the name is Team:

PROBLEM: cost 200 mp upgraded or unpgraded and counters vehicles, comes at 50 fuel. But pretty much owns light vehicles like bikes, scout cars, any pe ht.. Now u field bikes vs snipers, right? But its impossible when these guys are around.

FIX: Well upgraded they should cost like 250 mp, and ofcourse tone down dmg vs light targets abit. Just abit so they are not so good. Also maybe I am dreaming, but their Ambush seems bugged, doesnt shoot. Ambush should allow them to make their dmg better, thats why they dont need such high dmg without Ambush. Also building dmg seems abit high? Consider making upgrade 150 mun

- Heavy Mortar:

PROBLEM: removing barrage didnt do much, u can still target ground into FOW and they will attack. Admitely that supposedly is worse than Barrage. Maybe simply leave it as it is. But the dmg is a Problem. Russians from AT inf high building dmg, to Sniper Team arty, Command Squad arty, Engenery Satchels and Flamers, or Artillery Firebase (10 shell arty) do they really need heavy Mortar that instagibs any buidlings not to mention squads with no effort?

FIX: nerf dmg and make upgrade cost 150 mun

- At Gun

PROBLEM: reinforce cost is 96! should be way way lower, mortar reiforces for 32 for example. Yes Sniper Team does for 100 mp, but its a Sniper.

well since im proposing 150 mun for the support units upgrades, its only consistant to include At Gun. I havent really used Upgraded one much, if its not worth 150 mun, buff it abit?

- Heal Truck:

well its seems mostly fine because while its cheap, it comes quite late and dies easily. Only problem I see is their wreck is kinda weird. Dunno I wouldnt mind seeing an upgrade for this one, whatever it may be (collecting bodys? 7 body spawns Strelky squad? for like 150-200 mun, but must be deployed and cant heal while collecting. well its just a suggestion, maybe something else)


So this is end for the infantry, note for upgrades, right now, infantry (Engenery, Conscripts, Strelky and Guards) upgrades cost 200 mun each, while support teams upgrades (Sniper Team, AT inf Team, Mortar Team, AT Gun Team) cost 100 mun. Which costs 1200 mun. I proposed 50 for Conscripts, 100-150 for Strelky, 250-300 for Guards, Engenery same 200 as now and support teams 150 each, which comes to same as now to around 1200 mun.. Doesnt alter lategame, but gives options early game as opposed to make Comamnd Squad and mass Conscripts and then full tech and spam Guards, tanks and maybe alternative with support teams.

Emplacements and Buildings:

- Artillery Firebase:
 
PROBLEM: its pretty cheap (300 mp 100 fuel) considering Russia really has no shortage of fuel but fine. What really pushes it over the edge is is power. Can be compared to British 25 pdr (it costs 450 75 fuel) but in power its superior. It fires 10 shells as opposed to 25pdrs 6 shells, while they do seems more random, still thats huge. Also has incredible range, 25pdr lacks range. The only way 25pdr is comparable to Artillery Firebase is if u use Cpts Victor Target extremly well (so that u essentialy double 25pdr firerate) but that is very very hard since the Victor Target nerf, which means Cpt has to be near his targets.

FIX: well i would reduce number of shells to 8 and possibly make it cost 350 mp in addition for a start.

- MG Dugout: (comes 1 cp in Propaganda doctrine)

PROBLEM: well its a vickers. And it costs 300 mp 15 fuel. Honestly, that isnt good

FIX: make it cost 200 mp, possibly increase hp abit. Its a doctrine abillity...

- Outpost:

PROBLEM: well it seems fine right now (very weak)and costs 250 mp, but I am not sure that 5% bug was fixed and also Ive encountered something sinister, sniper garrison vs PE. Inc nades sure dont do anything vs that. Also if Command Squad is nerfed in power, which is base for soviet T1, Outpost is too expensive then

FIX: well apart form bugs, if Command Squad is nerfed, Outpost should cost 200 mp

TANKS

- T70

2 of them losses vs upgun Puma. More dmg? Also Puma doesnt appear to miss either t17 or t90

What would be great to see is an upgrade to T70&T90 which would improve their hp somewhat. 1 upgrade for both, cost dunno, 150 munis?

- Other tanks: (T34, IS, ..)

Dunno, but upguns for T34 and that other turretless tanks seem so weird. I dont really notice that much change and both upgrades cost 300 mun. i mean seriously, at ht needed 3 shots from upgraded hatzer like tank, while upgrade gives it upgun and armor boost, 2 at hts dealed quite nice dmg vs it. the IS-2 seems fine i guess, like a panther, also similar cost. I mean i think power of tanks is fine really, just those 2 upgun upgrades seem too costy for effect.

Its just, they dont get like anti-inf tank, apart from t90 and that is equal to puma, m8 etc. Best anti inf tank in my experience is T34 when u mass them. Not terribly effective, but when massed i guess it can be.



Post Merge: January 26, 2010, 01:26:36 AMuh too much words, i cant copy what i wrote about Doctrines, because it merges the 2 posts. I will when someone replys to the thread

[Oxygen]

Recrewing: They said they can't add it because of relic's bug, when soviets recrew the game crush.

Retreating: That's the major uniqueness of the soviets, the balance should derive from it, and not change it.

Teching: I agree it's a problem that there are only 2 build orders (t1->t2->t3 or t1->t3->t2) and you unlock all units you can. I suggested to add 2 upgrades in each building to unlock the next line of units, and you still need a certain number of buildings to upgrade each. This way you get T-90 before T-34, and also you don't necessarily unlock all units by the end of the game. Current fuel costs should be adjusted in this case.

Units: I agree with guards and sterky upgrade change costs.
I think that engis upgrade problem is not the Satchel but the smg. They are not suppose to be so fighters, I rather give them faster repairing instead.
Sharptroopers upgrade cost, if the arty stays as it is, should increase.
Heal Truck should not produce zombies. Soviets die too much and should not create new squads out of them.

Artillery Firebase: I think they can't be recrew as well, so they are not so bad. Easy to clear.
MG Dugout: I haven't seen it in use, so a buff can be good.

[bavbav]

ye i dont mind the no retreat, it feels fine actualy and doctrines seems to be around that too, but only problem is with 3 abilitys like i said: propaganda, wehr officer forced retreat and assault grenades. all 3 require retreat to function, unless you make Soviets get suppressed by propaganda and say Command Squad fireup somehow un-stun the assault naded soviets. I hope that is possible tho, or maybe give them a one time retreat when those abilitys are used

Also for recrewing, if russians cant recrew thats fine, but axis should spend full squads on recrewing, but right now only PE does. Thats because 4 man can recrew, but if 5 man would, then it would be full price for wehr also.


alright i can post the other half now, here it is:



DOCTRINE


PROPAGANDA doctrine:


MG Dugout:

well like I already said, 100 less mp cost and slightly more hp

- For The Motherland:

it doesnt last long and it only makes unsupresable, also long cooldown. Seems balanced, maybe even too long cooldown. But do we really need this ability, infantry units have lots of way to escape mgs. If that fails, they still have arty.

- Russian War Machine:

basicly AWM that is made for infantry. Has a long cooldown (500 sec) but it sure last long, its like 90 sec? or more. You can really waste all of inf you have, not just once, but twice easly, because it lasts long. I dont know has the potential to be too good. If it is, limit to number of ressurected squads to say 3-4.

- Trenches:

well theyre 1 cp trenches. Better than British trenches? It is somewhat easyer to make more, but only engis can make them not every inf like British. Seems fine.

- Katyuska Rockets:

I tried them couple of times, they seem fine as they are really, they are cheap, 300 mp, but if u compare to nebels, basicly same. Killing potential is half of Caliope so is cost. You can have 3 and they die to anything, just like Heal Truck. Id say they are fine. Maybe 350 mp

- God of War arty:

900 sec cooldown, 120 sec shooting over a large area. Honestly its pretty abusive if you cast it near enemy hq sector, because the large area it fires, will basicly affect whole enemy HQ sector regardless if u cannot target directly on it. It would be nice to reduce area abit, along with slightly reduced cooldown and also reduced time it bombards form 2 min to like 80 sec? Like i said problem is only vs HQ and well camping vs God of War eats any bunker+flak or flak+vierling combo away too. I mean like I mentioned before, Russians really do not lack artillery, they are basicaly best artillery army in patch 1.1

URBAN doctrine:

- Flamers for Engenery:

well i covered that already, simply should cost 75 instead of 50.

- Not One Step Back:

I have only used it couple times and seems fine, it immobilises, but makes them bit better. obvious counter to that is arty and nades, so this abilitys seems fine to me.

- KV-2 Steamroller:

seems fine to me really. Ive seen others say its OP, but dunno. Its slow and 750 mp, but has long range. Its a combination of Stuh and AVRE. Slow and high hp from AVRE, also turret, free arty from Stuh. Hasmore trouble hitting infantry than aither AVRE or Stuh at close range, but it does have longer range than both and only excell at range. Seems fine to me. But again, Russians best arty ingame?

- Partizans:

I hate how they can just spam all of neutral building around the map with their demos because they cost 0. And Cloak is abuse, because they can get into your base and Demo everything for FREE. There simply need to be restriction to how much demos they can lay. 2-3 is enough. Also is there a bug with Cloak, because i remember one game, they didnt have it, i really dont know.

- Booby Traps for Partizans:

it simply seems out of place, booby traps. For a doctrine power anyway, they should simply have it from start. It does create confusion when playing vs PE tho, which booby just went off? Id prefer something new. How about those Bounc-Bettys (mines basicly) that are in Falaise pocket campaign? Speaking of which do AT INF RPDG guys use that weapon that american have in Falaise campaign?

- Sniper Ace:

So hes 750 mp vet3 american sniper with stickys and arty and Commandos smoke? Well he would need tracers and well the arty is same as with Sniper Team, too good.


BREAKTHROUGH doctrine:

- Stalin Speech

feels generic, just like For The Motherland abilitys does. This one allows Sprint. I assume squads can still get suppressed. If thats the case it fine.

- Tank riders:

costs 750, u get T34 which is garrisonable and 4 man squad of unpgraded Guards. Seems to be only garrisonable by those Guards that come with it. All in all this seems fine and is not the new Roo... Seeing how T34 costs 300 mp 75 fuel and 7 man Guards cost 300mp, paying 750 for this is reasonable.

- IL-2 Sturmovik:

Henschel run combined with Strafe and Bomb run. Needless to say this one is insanely strong, especialy the strafing bit. Nerf Strafe and reduce the affected area and ti will still be OP. Very hard to balance this one. because its free and has long cooldown, sure needs some firepower, but it can win a game right there.

- Mechanics

300 mp with fast repair and can recover wrecks after 4 cp. They are essentialy an infantry Bergetiger. They cost less and also less pop, probably easy to manouver around, but much more vulnerable due to being infantry and no retreat. Id say they are fine. But they are somewhat lackluster until you get salvage, they can only repair, although quite fast.

- Rolling fortress

Good that you replaced Dig-in for IS-2 with mechanics salvage. Fair enough for 4 cp.

- ISU 152 Tank

mix of jagd and kt. 1000 mp like both, no vet and slow like KT, no turret like jagd. Dunno about hp seems to have KT levels aswell. For firepower, high dmg vs tanks, can snipe inf good, similar to KT aswell. However it has longer range, focus ablity that immobilises it and can be called in more than once. Id say KT for 1000 mp is too good compared to pershing, tiger (both 900 and require vet) and even jagd which is worth exactly 1000. Id stick a 1200 price on KT and this one is bit better. So it really need to be 1200 mp or more (if KT would ever cost 1200 this should cost 1300)



MAPS:

good effort by the map makers, however sadly i must say i find practicaly all of them weird to play on. They just dont flow good. Also a number of maps has so bad layout, PE ketten gets stuck and also such small HQ sectors that PE cant build their buildings.



So I must say it took me long time to write this up. Ive tried to cover everything and I did it because its great to play this mod and if I can contribute to it, then its great. I only wish id knew it existed before so i could help with stuff, especialy balance suggestions.. I hear Ostheer will be released aswell, there a possiblity I could provide some feedback on that?

Anyways, thanks for releasing this to everyone involved (what ToV should have been?) and I wish good luck in future!

[GodlikeDennis]

You should put the version you are responding to up top, like [1.01] so we know what patch you're talking about. Since I only saw mention of 1.00 and 1.01, I also assume you don't have the latest patch version which is 1.04.

I admit I didn't read your entire post (what dedication) but a lot of the things you do mention have been dealt with already and Russian teching is supposedly being addressed in the next patch.

Also, wozlzl is annoying. Edit: and I just realised he necroed this thread from ages ago...

[stryker]

You should put the version you are responding to up top, like [1.01] so we know what patch you're talking about. Since I only saw mention of 1.00 and 1.01, I also assume you don't have the latest patch version which is 1.04.

He was talking about the latest at the time of his post...26 January.  This is an old thread.

Cheers !

[BurroDiablo]

Necromancy ftl

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