For speculation

[GamblerSK]

Swastika emblem is denied everyone knows why i hope but why the sickle and hammer not?
both are representing totalitarian regime in which millions people died, so whats wrong?
in Slovakia you can go even to jail for propagandism of swastika but when you promoting sickle and hammer its ok, in post Communist countries is still big problem of balancing whit history and most spokesman which was representing Communism just change mask and now act like democracy politics and that's bad...

[Bigpop]

Because the Western Allies were friends with the hammer and sickle through WWII. Because of that, we have turned a blind eye to bad things done. Sadly, The world was so worried about Nazi Germany that we closed our eyes to Stalinist Russia.

It's always been a pet peave of mine as well, that the swastika is outlawed. I mean, what they did was wrong, but the swastika was used and had many other important meanings in it's history than just Nazi Germany. Everyone knows Hitler got it from Rome. So any Roman symbolism with a swastika is also outlawed. It's very sad.

Not trying to be an ass here, but I think the German government has done a real dis-service to the country's history and put more of a burden on it's younger generations by outlawing the damn symbol. Outlawing it doesn't mean it's going to go away. That time for Germany is a dark sad time, they know that but they have moved on. It's not like having the symbol there is going to cause Hitler to pop out of the sky and take Germany over again. And outlawing CERTAINLY doesn't mean what happened is going to go away.

Somethings about history are bad, but you can't just ignore them. What was done, was done. All people should be able to read about it, learn about it and most importantly learn FROM it.

[GamblerSK]

your right with that the history must be remembered and not to be forgoten and we all and most the younger people must learn how bad was those times (now its opposite, many young people even don't know much about holocaust and more)
but what i wanted to say is that the something is good (sickle and hammer) and other thing (swastika) are bad and that's wrong theres a problem of knowledge, i think both regimes must be "thrown into one bag" and not taken separately.
I think its good that the swastika is denied even it was taken from roman artwork, it represents those dark times and that's it and it could be too with sickle and hammer

[ford_prefect]

that sign is banned in several countires for one. And for many other reasons they will not add it. YES it is a part of history. That piece of history is the kind that we shove into a back room and don't talk about. I would hate to see that....that thing in the mod. Now your going to go on and on about how its just a buddhist symbol. Well they turned it around, I belive that symbol meant peace (dont take my word for it) and they switched it around and made it the oppiosite. SO NO way will I even touch this mod if it has that fascist symbol.

[thebomb]

One of the reasons the swastika is perceived differently than the hammer and sickle is because it represents the actions of a government that undertook a deliberate effort to commit genocide on a specific group of people (gays, mentally ill, jews). The Soviet regime meanwhile never deliberately instituted a genocidal program. Their reasons for murdering were political and not based on racist hatred, sexual orientation etc...

[ford_prefect]

that is true. I mean Soviet mass killings were hidden from plain sight. Unlike the Nazis who as Bomb said killed for Racism

[WartyX]

So what makes political mass murders any better than racial genocide?

[GamblerSK]

i don't see a big difference betwen killing because of racism or a political at the end of both are millions of lives which was taken
a big number of people died in gulags they worked to death if we separate deaths which was done by war and take deaths which hapends by genocide and deaths that was provided in gulags then the soviets kill more people then Nazis with their genocide...

[thebomb]

So what makes political mass murders any better than racial genocide?

It doesn't make it "better" you just have to put the two into perspective. I would argue that there is a distinction between killing people in the interests of power/with the intent to assume a position of dominance (in the case of the Soviet Union) - and killing people in the interests of racial purity - which is only rarely seen in history. The former is a simple power struggle, taken to the 20th century level, that goes on every day. The latter meanwhile devoted an entire government branch to wipe out whoever was deemed impure. I would rank this on a higher "evil" scale, I guess, than killing in the interest of being the alpha male (taken to the nation state level) which again, happens daily.
Post Merge: February 07, 2010, 02:23:27 AM

i don't see a big difference betwen killing because of racism or a political at the end of both are millions of lives which was taken
a big number of people died in gulags they worked to death if we separate deaths which was done by war and take deaths which hapends by genocide and deaths that was provided in gulags then the soviets kill more people then Nazis with their genocide...

I agree, the Soviet regime did take millions of lives but again, I'd have to say that killing because you simply want to stay in power/strengthen your grip on the country is different from killing those that are not racially pure. 

[ford_prefect]

So what makes political mass murders any better than racial genocide?

the fact that one is GENOCIDE and Racist while the other is for politics

[GamblerSK]

Ok so there is difference one is for political and other is for racism reason BUT!!! there is only one result = Death and you cant say one is smaller and one is bigger evil its only one evil = evil...

[thebomb]

Ok so there is difference one is for political and other is for racism reason BUT!!! there is only one result = Death and you cant say one is smaller and one is bigger evil its only one evil = evil...

Right...so along with the swastika I assume you also want the American bald eagle and British Union jack banned too right? They killed thousands of innocent people people in Iraq..so let's ban those symbols too.

[GamblerSK]

but when you look on the American bald eagle or that British union jack what you see? or what comes on you mind? nothing but the sickle and hammer is representing very long time of oppression,fear and death. The American troops or British don't came to Iraq for killing innocent people that wasn't their goal but what Communist did is something totally else then what are you want to say, also the Saddam Hussein was dictator too he order to kill many innocent people even his cousin i think ordered to kill thousands of Kurd people by chemical weapons...so don't try to compare those things

[thebomb]

but when you look on the American bald eagle or that British union jack what you see? or what comes on you mind?

Exploitation, greed, racism, colonialism.

but the sickle and hammer is representing very long time of oppression,fear and death.

I wouldn't say that the hammer and sickle represents oppression, fear and death in the same way that the swastika represents nazi genocide. The swastika is a very specific identifier, it says "Hey, I identify with the Nazi regime and its 'philosophies'". The swastika did not have the time to develop other attributes like the hammer and sickle. If for example I see someone with a Soviet flag, or pin I don't think "He identifies himself with oppression, fear and death!". Some may but more often than not the person that has these items is simply heavily left-leaning.

I would argue that the hammer and sickle represents more The American troops or British don't came to Iraq for killing innocent people that wasn't their goal but what Communist did is something totally else then what are you want to say, also the Saddam Hussein was dictator too he order to kill many innocent people even his cousin i think ordered to kill thousands of Kurd people by chemical weapons...so don't try to compare those things

So what the Americans and British did is one thing but what the communists did is another? You are contradicting yourself. Earlier you said:

there is only one result = Death and you cant say one is smaller and one is bigger evil its only one evil = evil...

Either an American or British murder of an Iraqi is just as evil as a Soviet murder or they are not. You said the Soviets and Nazi murders were the same. But you can't have your cake and eat it...if Soviet and Nazi crimes are the same then so are American and British ones.

[Bigpop]

All of these are easily connected, sorry if that upsets anyone. Murder is murder, no matter how you cut it, define it in your own mind, make excuses etc etc.

I'm not religious, what-so-ever, but for those of you who believe in God (or A God), do you think if you killed one man who was black because you don't like blacks, or killed a Caucasian who just happened to be the CEO of a rival company, the punishment would be any different? A man, woman, child, person was killed. Their life ended. It doesn't matter if you starved them to death or shot them or beat them to death. They are still dead because of you.

To justify or reason with what the Nazis or Communists did in WWII is silly. You can't moralize whole sale murder. You can't defend it on any level, regardless of the motive. The fact that someone was murdered, regardless of the reason is a terrible thing.

As far as the Swastika in game, I couldn't care less one way or the other but no one in this topic said it should be in the game.

As for the swastika or hammer and sickle issue in general, neither should be outlawed. Censorship is the easy way to get past what happened and let people forget. These symbols are important to WORLD history and should never be banned. Hence why I argued for the Swastika to be unbanned! History can be ugly. People should never forget it, less the same mistakes be made.