2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith

[wordsmith]

okay, i simply understood this wrong somehow.
But where do i research it?

It is meant to research in Tier2 building, right where the Tiger could be build. However it is not exactly writen I just assumed it thank you for pointing it, when I will make next changes I will update it.

- also, 3 tigers are too many.

Normally 2 Tigers, but with upgrade 3. As you can see the Panzergruppe upgrade is possible only in Emergency supply yard (ESY), which is mutually exclusive to Specialist training facility (STF). This means player had 2 choices what to build: either ESY and then no special units but 3 Tigers possibility or going STF and have 3 special fighting units but only 2 Tigers.

The logic is to keep balance in game and for player to make strategic decision if going more for special infantry units or going for more resource control and increased number of Tigers.

and by the way,
good work @ your doctrines.
They look tough and well. Also how you build them up
is quite logicially. That makes them really "doctrinal".

Most concepts here dont have such doc's which would fit
in CoH that well.
There are just some things which are too expensive or too
inexpensive, but well thats balance.

the only thing i dont like is the Nashorn, for the reason
of being to similiar to the elefant, just worse armoured.
and for the reason to look just like the hummel.
As other mods showed, thats really boring.


nevertheless good work here

Thank you mate I really appreciate that someone like it. I like your and Lord Rommel's concepts too. They are both full of original ideas (like your heavy bunker +1) and thought well through. I created my concept as I would like to play it but I know that every player has its own perks which would like to play eventually. I thought it would be easier to make own concept but it was really hard. I spend lots of work on it so I appreciate every other man who finished its own concept cause I know how lot of work it is. And as I also said - I really like your artwork man, this was huge inspiration for me to create something like that too... and I really enjoyed it.

In regards to Nashorn, yes I agree that it is not very original to have 2 similar AT guns. But as I mentioned in this discussion - it is hard to pick any original equipment because Wehr&PE covers wide variety of units. And as for Nashorn itself I meant it to be attack AT gun which kites from behind of main tank force. Ostheer needs some kind of AT guns, Pak38 has Wehr so it leaves only heavy pieces 7.5cm or 8.8cm AT guns which are too heavy to be able to move by men. And to make them static like 17pounder would not be original too.

So Nashorn from this perspective is good compromise. I imagine Nashorn with combination of Wespe and some PzIII+Tigers as mobile force assaulting together as armored spear, maneuvering and fighting. Elefant is too slow to keep up with other vehicles. That is why I put Elefant into defensive doctrine and Nashorn into offensive doctrine.

[OB3R]

If the tiger was made uber like it should be then 1 would be plenty, I think atm the way it is its a waste of mp and ep to even make one as a Russian AT guy can take it out with about 5 shots.
OB3R

[Shadowmetroid]

- also, 3 tigers are too many.

Normally 2 Tigers, but with upgrade 3. As you can see the Panzergruppe upgrade is possible only in Emergency supply yard (ESY), which is mutually exclusive to Specialist training facility (STF). This means player had 2 choices what to build: either ESY and then no special units but 3 Tigers possibility or going STF and have 3 special fighting units but only 2 Tigers.

The logic is to keep balance in game and for player to make strategic decision if going more for special infantry units or going for more resource control and increased number of Tigers.

The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)

[wordsmith]

The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)

The point is that you have to consider bigger picture than just comparing 1 or 2 Tigers availability. In case Russian will spam IS-2 you are doomed with 1 Tiger as in my concept there are no other reasonable hard counter to other heavy tanks - PzIII will not stand even vs T34/85 spam. Please note that Panthers, PzIVs and stronger AT guns are not included in this concept. The only other option would be doctrinal Nashorn (weak armor) or doctrinal Elefant (restricted to 1 unit). Pak36 is too weak vs heavy armors MarderIII/StugIII would not survive such assault either. AT infantry could help but it is not hard counter to IS-2.

Tiger would cost more than IS-2, had higher popcap and had to be upgraded for reliability otherwise its use is limited. Not to mention the Fuel loss principle which could cause serious fuel income drainage after some vehicle loses.

I designed the Ostheer as faction which should have slight initial advantage in tanks but with disatvantage of fuel shortage in later game - which is also historically accurate btw.

One short calculation:
If you want to produce 3 Tigers it would cost overall 2350 MP and 525 Fuel (with Panzergruppe and Reliability upgrades)
For that price you could have 4x IS-2.
If Russian player loses the IS-2s he can rebuild them easilly. If Ostheer player loses 2x Tigers it equals like loosing one low income fuel territory - permanently.

[Paciat]

The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)

The point is that you have to consider bigger picture than just comparing 1 or 2 Tigers availability. In case Russian will spam IS-2 you are doomed with 1 Tiger as in my concept there are no other reasonable hard counter to other heavy tanks - PzIII will not stand even vs T34/85 spam. Please note that Panthers, PzIVs and stronger AT guns are not included in this concept. The only other option would be doctrinal Nashorn (weak armor) or doctrinal Elefant (restricted to 1 unit). Pak36 is too weak vs heavy armors MarderIII/StugIII would not survive such assault either. AT infantry could help but it is not hard counter to IS-2.

Tiger would cost more than IS-2, had higher popcap and had to be upgraded for reliability otherwise its use is limited. Not to mention the Fuel loss principle which could cause serious fuel income drainage after some vehicle loses.

I think there is no point of making a 3 on the field limit Tiger I becouse thats 3 Tigers alone is 42 pop. Also Tigers are not counters to IS-2 becouse their too expensive. Cheap Pak or Panther spamming is real a counter to IS-2 and youre army dosnt have anything like that.

This is my concept:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2681.0
Ill underline the counters to IS-2 spam in this post.

There is no PzIV or a Panther in it. PzIII is also the only medium tank.

Theres a 7,5cm AT gun upgrade that lets biuld AT emplacements and replaces stubby stugIIIe with a long barreled stugIIIf/g.

A JagdpanzerIV with an panthers gun is the late game tank killer that can take on an IS-2. It costs 500MP/90Fuel. It has "only" 650HP but jagdpanthers armor.

There is only 1 on the field Tiger I tank but there are also a 1 time call-ins of a Tiger Ace in a manouver doctrine and Elephant in a siege doctrine.

[wordsmith]

I think there is no point of making a 3 on the field limit Tiger I becouse thats 3 Tigers alone is 42 pop. Also Tigers are not counters to IS-2 becouse their too expensive. Cheap Pak or Panther spamming is real a counter to IS-2 and youre army dosnt have anything like that.

There is point at least when playing not only 1vs1 but games with more players involved. And in my concept Tigers are counter to IS-2 because yet there is no other option. I considered Jagdpanzer IV too but decided not to include it just because then Nashorn or Elephant would not be so unique. At least Nashorn would be redundant then...

The bitching about too many Tigers comes from the fact that most players when facing Wehr opponent with Tiger doesn't realize that Tiger had usually vet3 and is backed up with some Panthers/PzIV mix which is not possible in my concept. Not to mention that if Wehr Tiger is destroyed it can be called again and veterancy remains making it real pain in the ass.

[Venoxxis]

Thank you mate I really appreciate that someone like it. I like your and Lord Rommel's concepts too. They are both full of original ideas (like your heavy bunker +1) and thought well through. I created my concept as I would like to play it but I know that every player has its own perks which would like to play eventually. I thought it would be easier to make own concept but it was really hard. I spend lots of work on it so I appreciate every other man who finished its own concept cause I know how lot of work it is. And as I also said - I really like your artwork man, this was huge inspiration for me to create something like that too... and I really enjoyed it.

Yes its really hard to create a concept on your own i had to
learn that on my own man
But its pretty cool to see other people building up their concepts
like i did, because in my opionion its simply the clearest way of all.
But hell yea, its a ton work.

+1


About the tiger, I didnt think about its ability to take out
any tank of the soviets at all guys.
This Panzer is far more deadly than everything against infantry.
It takes out 3 rager squads at the same time easily, if you know how to use it though.
And these are the strongest AT inf of the allies.
Just think about 3 of them rolling into your blob, this blob would be gone with just a few shots.
This PANZER can kill one whole squad with only ONE shot. The tigers 88 has the best surface damage of alltanks in the whole game, even better than the one of the KT. (hell knows why).

Also, this doesnt need veterancy, since the vet of the tiger
is just passiv. (-> better def. data)
look:  http://coh-stats.com/Veterancy:Tiger
Just expand the "Tiger Veterancy" window.

Also Paks are no match for it, even 2 at the sime time. (micro)
if your lucky, you can take a pak with only one shot out (form the back).

This tank is a allrounder. And is fast enough as well.
making it the best tank of the whole game.

The impact 3 Tigers would cause is just hilarious.
Without talking about its AT ablities as well.


This isnt any kind of bitching, its just criticizing a funky part of your concept m8 ! Think about what you will do with this critism we are doing here atm!



Regards, anyways its your concept
-V-

[wordsmith]

Also, this doesnt need veterancy, since the vet of the tiger
is just passiv.

Also Paks are no match for it, even 2 at the sime time. (micro)
if your lucky, you can take a pak with only one shot out (form the back).

This isnt any kind of bitching, its just criticizing a funky part of your concept m8 ! Think about what you will do with this critism we are doing here atm!

It needs veterancy otherwise 2x AT guns would rape it (when properly backed up with some armor and/or inf) especially US 57mm with AP shot ability.

And by bitching I meant not about my concept but in general about Tigers in other topics here on this forum. I have no problem with criticism if it is constructive. But I think when players feel the more Tigers would be OP, they should consider bigger picture too, like that Wehr Tiger would be different than Ostheer Tiger due to difference in veterancy, support units and other stuff (game mechanics, tech, doctrines)...

Hypothetical question - would be Tiger OP if:
- it costs 1000 MP and 250 Fuel?
- if it has 16 popcap?
- will take about 3 minutes to produce?
- it has no veterenacy bonuses?

[hgghg4]

No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch

[wordsmith]

No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch

My point was that Tiger could be tuned with costs so then more Tigers could be available. I don't like the unit limit on non-doctinal units produced in factories. Such thing is not implemented in whole CoH except British LT/Captain/Comm.Tank.

On coh-stats.com there is Tiger costs stated as 980MP 220Fuel 14 Popcap:
http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger

I think if such costs used, no unit limit would be necessary...

One thing could be done to prevent spam of Tigers, I call it Progressive popcap. It means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90

With such limits it is obvious that no more that 2-3 Tigers will usually be present on the field.

[Venoxxis]

I like that sort of solution as well for the reasons you just mentioned.

But on the other hand, a THAT like expensive tiger would be almost unreachable in a usual game. also for its power, its a but too much i think. especially that amount of fuel is outstanding.

[Paciat]

It must be annoying to answer about the Tiger I time and time again.
The truth is StugIV (and StuH) is 4pop and noone complanes that it is OP.
If you let youre oponent build 3 Tigers and not have a counter to them than you should loose the game.
Same thing with 4 Panthers or 11! StugIV.

Tigers are a breakthtu weapons and 2 AT guns (only 280MP 3pop each) for every Tiger is the least you could build to counter them.

About the coh-stats.com Tiger I cost:
PE Panther costs 640MP 140Fuel while Jagdpanther costs 300MP 0Fuel! These values are only important when you gain CPs for a destroyed/lost tank.

[Shadowmetroid]

No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch

My point was that Tiger could be tuned with costs so then more Tigers could be available. I don't like the unit limit on non-doctinal units produced in factories. Such thing is not implemented in whole CoH except British LT/Captain/Comm.Tank.

On coh-stats.com there is Tiger costs stated as 980MP 220Fuel 14 Popcap:
http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger

I think if such costs used, no unit limit would be necessary...

One thing could be done to prevent spam of Tigers, I call it Progressive popcap. It means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90

With such limits it is obvious that no more that 2-3 Tigers will usually be present on the field.

If there is a "progressive popcap" (good idea, btw.) Then 3 Tigers aren't so bad after all.

[hgghg4]

It must be annoying to answer about the Tiger I time and time again.
The truth is StugIV (and StuH) is 4pop and noone complanes that it is OP.

That is because a 57 can two shot them with AP rounds and 3-4 shot them w/o the Stug is best used as a supporting unit not a breakthrough, the only time I use it as a MBT is if I do the random stomp here and there with friends, then I really don't care because I am just messin around anyway

[wordsmith]

I've updated my concept a little with regards to comments and feedback I received. The list of changes is following (v2.1):

- Ostheer infantry has now ability to obtain Light MG

- no limit to Tiger tanks but increased it costs to 900 MP 200 Fuel

- Tiger received a "Progressive popcap" attribute

- decreased size/cost of the Hitleryouth infantry (3men) and renamed it to Reserves infantry

- decreased abilities/cost of Elite stromtroopers and renamed it to Assault squad

- increased crew for Raketenwerfer 56 (6 men)

- add new unit Flakpanzer Kugelblitz, mobile AAA (replaces Brummbär which is now doctrinal)

- replaced Panzergrenadier with Gebirgsjäger, long range scout infantry

- replaced Panzergruppe upgrade with Advanced recruiting upgrade

- replaced "Convert resources" abilities with "Organize supply" abilities

- tuned veterancy bonuses slightly

- tuned Ju87D strike (now drop only 1+2 bombs for 250 Ammo)

- changed "Smoke barrage" in Holding ground doctrine to "Carefull positioning" ability

- changed "15cm Artillery" in Holding ground doctrine to " Sturmpanzer IV" call-in ability

- tuned "Ambush"  ability in Holding ground doctrine, now only AT guns available to cloak

Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you all for the support!