Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -  (Read 12072 times)

Offline StormsDivision

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- Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« on: April 05, 2010, 01:24:27 AM »
Hey guys, love the mod and i'd love to contribute to it by making some suggestions, i've been playing CoH for 3 years so i'm confident of myself that i know what is balanced or not.

--1. Buildings and Units--

Ostfront Headquaters - The ostfront headquaters is the first building avaible to the Ostheer, it produces vital building units for the Ostheer --->
   Produces:

1. Ostheer Pioneers --->
   Good vs: Infantry
   Cost: 170 manpower, 3 pop cap
   Reinforce cost: 18 manpower
   Upgrades: Advanced repair (50 munition), Minesweeper (30 munition)
   Build time: 17 seconds
   Health per man: 58
   Speed: 2
   Weapon: 2x mp40, 1x Kar98
   Size: 3 men

 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Ostheer Infantry bunker - The ostheer infantry bunker produces the backbone units of the ostheer for early-mid game. Cost: 250 manpower + 10 fuel --->
   Produces:

1.) Grenadier Truppen --->
   Description: Grenadier Truppen are German soldiers trained to fight on the frontline
   Good vs: Infantry
   Cost: 290 manpower, 5 pop
   Reinforce cost: 32 manpower
   Upgrades: 3x G41 (45 Munition, requires 'Sturm Bunker')
   Build time: 25 seconds
   Health per man: 64
   Speed: 2.5
   Weapon: 4x Kar98, 1x Mp40
   Squad size: 5 men

2.) MG34 Machine gun --->
   Good vs: Infantry
   Cost: 280 manpower, 3 pop
   Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
   Upgrades: N/A
   Build time: 30 seconds
   Health per man: 53
   Speed: 2.5
   Weapon: 1x Tripod MG34, 2x MP40
   Squad size: 3 men

3.) Scharfschütze (sniper) --->
   Good vs: Infantry
   Cost: 360 manpower
   Reinforce cost: N/A
   Upgrades: 6x Zeiss telescopic sight
   Build time: 40 seconds
   Health per man: 50
   Speed: 3
   Weapon: Kar98k w/ 4x Zeiss Telescopic sight
   Squad size: 1 man

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Sturm Bunker - The Sturm Bunker is able to produce some of the most versatile units availbe to the Ostheer, it also enables Grenadier Truppen to be upgraded with G41's. Requires: Ostheer Infantry bunker   Cost: 360 manpower + 25 fuel --->

1.) Sturmtruppen --->
   Good vs: Infantry, Light vehicles
   Cost: 330 manpower, 4 pop cap
   Reinforce cost: 35 manpower
   Upgrades: 1x Panzerschreck (60 munitions), 2x StG44 (60 munitions)
   Build time: 35 seconds
   Health per man: 60
   Speed: 3
   Weapon: 1x Stg44 3x Kar98
   Squad size: 4 men

2.) 8cm Mortar team --->
   Good vs: Infantry, Light vehicles
   Cost: 280 manpower, 3 pop cap
   Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
   Upgrades: N/A
   Build time: 30 seconds
   Health per man: 54
   Speed: 2
   Weapon: 1x 8cm mortar (operated by 2 men), 1x mp40
   Squad size: 3 men

3.) Panzerjäger Squad --->
   Good vs: Light vehicles, tanks
   Cost: 310 manpower, 4 pop cap
   Reinforce cost: 36 manpower
   Upgrades: 1x Panzerschreck (60 munition)
   Build time: 32 seconds
   Health per man: 70
   Speed: 2.5
   Weapon: 1x Panzerschreck, 3x Kar98
   Squad size: 4 men

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Ostheer panzer support bunker - This building produces units to support your main forces, it also provides a variety of light vehicles effective vs enemy light armour. Requires: Sturm Bunker   Cost: 420 manpower + 40 fuel

1.) Panzer Grenadiers
   Good vs: Infantry
   Cost: 350 manpower, 4 pop cap
   Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
   Upgrades: 2x StG44 (50 munition), 2x Kar98 Rifle grenades [Schießbecher] (50 munition) [Panzer grens do not have the throw grenade ability]
   Build time: 36 seconds
   Health per man: 90
   Speed: 3
   Weapon: 4x G43
   Squad size: 4 men

2.) PaK 40 75mm Anti-Tank gun
   Good vs: Light vehicles, Tanks
   Cost: 350 manpower, 4 pop
   Reinforce cost: 40 manpower
   Upgrades: N/A
   Build time: 40 seconds
   Health per man: 55
   Speed: 2
   Weapon: 1x PaK 40 (operated by 2 men), 2x mp40
   Squad size: 4 men

3.) StuG III
   Good vs: Infantry, Tanks
   Cost: 400 manpower, 55 fuel, 5 pop
   Upgrades: 7.5cm StuK 40 (long barreled high-velocity AP 75mm)
   Build time: 50 seconds
   Health: 450
   Speed: 5
   Weapon: 7.5cm StuK 37 (short barreled low-velocity HE 75mm)

4.) Panzer III
   Good vs: Light vehicles
   Cost: 350 Manpower, 50 fuel, 5 pop
   Upgrades: Armored skirts (50 munition)
   Build time: 47 seconds
   Health: 400
   Speed: 5.5
   Weapon: 50mm KwK 39

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Ostheer Panzer bunker - Deploys the Ostheer medium tanks, the backbone of the German panzer divisions.
Requires: Ostheer Panzer Support bunker   Cost: 400 manpower + 70 fuel

1.) Panzer IV --->
   Good vs: Infantry, Tanks
   Cost: 470 manpower, 80 fuel, 8 pop cap
   Upgrades: Armour skirts (50 munition)
   Build time: 57 seconds
   Health: 600
   Speed: 5
   Weapon: 7.5cm KwK 40

2.) Panzer V Panther --->
   Good vs: Tanks, Heavy tanks
   Cost: 570 manpower, 100 fuel, 10 pop cap
   Upgrades: Armored skirts (50 munition)
   Build time: 70 seconds
   Health: 800
   Speed: 6
   Weapon: 7.5cm KwK 42

3.) Hetzer
   Good vs: Tanks, Light vehicles
   Cost: 430 manpower, 60 fuel, 6 pop cap
   Upgrades: APCR Rounds (60 munition)
   Build time: 53 seconds
   Health: 550
   Speed: 5
   Weapon: 7.5cm PaK 39

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---


--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
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2. --Doctrines--

1.) Blitzkrieg

Left side: Panzer support

1.) Elite tank crews
   Description: All tanks get battle-hardened crews and perform better in combat
   Abilities: 20% Increased sight, 10% Faster firing, 30% Less chance of critical hit to tank (engine damaged, main gun destroyed etc), 5% speed increase
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: No cost
   Recharge time: None

2.) Blitzkrieg assault
   Description: While this ability is active, all tanks get a increase in speed, sight range and decreased reload times
   Abilities: +30% Speed, +20% Sight range, -10% Reload speed
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: 100 munitions
   Recharge time: 60 seconds
   Active for: 25 seconds

3.) King Tiger
   Description: Call in the pinnacle of German tank designs, the King Tiger is a very powerful tank to have on the battlefield, but can only be called in once, such a decisive weapon should not be squandered
   Abilities: Tank Shock (Free, 60 second recharge)
   Command points required: 5
   Ability cost: 1400 manpower
   Recharge time: N/A
   Excellent vs: Tanks, Heavy tanks
   Health: 2000
   Speed: 3
   Weapon: 8.8mm KwK 43


Right side: Infantry support

1.) Grenade Assault
    The same as the Blitz Grenadier Assault

2.) Elite Panzer Grenadier truppen
   Description: Call in 2 Veteran Panzer Grenadier squads with a Sdkfz.251 w/ MG42 capable to reinforce all nearby infantry squads
   Abilities: N/A
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: 450 manpower
   Recharge time: 50 seconds

3.) Veteran Seargent
   Description: All squad leaders recieve extra training and become more effective in combat
   Abilities: 20% Increased sight range, 15% Increased rate of fire, 5% increased speed, 5% increased accuracy for squad.
   Command points required: 4
   Ability cost: N/A
   Recharge time: N/A

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

2.) Luftwaffe

Left side: Air Support

1.) Recon plane
   Description: A recon plane will fly over the map providing sight for enemy units and buildings
   Abilities: N/A
   Command points required: 1
   Ability cost: 40 munitions
   Recharge time: 50 seconds

2.) Air re-supply
   Description: German air supply planes will drop 2 supply crates with heavy weapons in for infantry
   Abilities: Drops 2 supply crates with 2 Panzerschrecks and 2 MG42 LMG's, crates also contain 50 fuel and 100 munitions
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: 250 manpower
   Recharge time: 300 seconds

3.) Luftwaffe bombing
   Description: Dozens of bombers will drop their payload of heavy bombs of devastating large swaths of land
   Abilities: Drops a lot of bombs in the selected area (similar to the American bomber, slightly less powerful)
   Command points required: 4
   Ability cost: 200 munitions
   Recharge time: 200 seconds
   Active for: 45 seconds

Right side: Anti-Air support

1.) Base and Vehicle anti-air
   Description: All base structures get upgraded with 20mm Flakvierlings capable of targeting planes but not ground targets. All tanks (except StuG III) get equipped with a MG42 HMG's with AP rounds capable of dealing damage to aircraft.
   Abilities: Anti-air provided to base buildings and tanks
   Command points required: 1
   Ability cost: N/A
   Recharge time: N/A

2.) Flakvierling 20mm
   Description: Enables Pioneers to construct 20mm Flakvierlings (ineffective vs Infantry)
   Abilities: Effective stationary AA
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: Flakvierling 20mm costs 300mp, 20 fuel, 4 pop cap
   Recharge time: N/A

3.) Wirbelwind
   Description: Call in a mobile Anti-Air vehicle that is very effective vs infantry and planes
   Abilities: Good vs Infantry, excellent vs aircraft, can lock down that does not allow it to target infantry but targets planes much better.
   Command points required: 3
   Ability cost: 600 manpower
   Recharge time: 60 seconds
   Health: 450
   Speed: 5.5

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

3.) Artillery warfare

Left side: Battlefield Observation

1.) Increased sight range
    Has same effect as Wehrmacht increased line of sight, all points get increased sight range Costs 1 cp

2.) Binoculars
   Description: All infantry units are equipped with binoculars to improve sight range
   Abilities: +20% sight range for infantry squads (except sniper and pak40)
   Command points required: 2
   Ability cost: N/A
   Recharge time: N/A

3.) Drop flares
   Description: Drops red flares onto the target area to reveal part of the map
   Abilities: Reveals part of the map temporarily, cannot be dropped on enemy base territory
   Command points required: 3
   Ability cost: 50 munitions
   Recharge time: 60 seconds
   Active for: 10 seconds


Right side: Artillery support

1.) Heavy artillery strike
   Description: The selected area will be bombarded 6 150mm rounds
   Abilities: Similar to a Hummel barrage, except 6 rounds are fired instead of 4, red smoke is also shown
   Command points required: 3
   Ability cost: 175 munitions
   Recharge time: 60 seconds

2.) Panzerwerfer Self Propelled Artillery --->
   Description: Call in a halftrack with a 15cm rocket launcher, similar to the katyusha (max of 3 on battlefield)
   Abilities: Barrage with a salvo of missiles
   Command points required: 3
   Ability cost: 500 manpower
   Recharge time: 60 seconds

3.) Krupp K5 railroad gun barrage
   Description: Devastate the selected area with 8 rounds of 283mm HE shells
   Abilities: This ability will bombard a large area with 8 shells in a minute, the explosions are very big but it is inaccurate and expensive
   Command points required: 4
   Ability cost: 225 munitions
   Recharge time: 300 seconds
   Active for: 60 seconds

3. --Abilities--

1.) Infantry abilities

Repair - Availible to: Ostheer Pioneers, Panzer grenadiers

Advanced Repair - Available to: Upgraded Ostheer pioneers.
Faster repair of structures and units.

Sprint - Available to: Panzerjäger Squad, Panzer Grenadiers, Schwerer Panzerjäger squad

Fire Panzerfaust - Available to upgraded Schwerer Panzerjäger squads

Throw anti tank grenade - Available to upgraded Sturm Panzerjäger squads

Storm - Available to Sturmtruppen.
Reduces suppression, increases rate of fire, lasts for 10 seconds, 40 second recharge, exhaustion for 7 seconds after use

Grenade assault- Available to Sturmtruppen. each member of the squad will throw 3 grenades at a long range at the given area, any infantry caught in the blast will be stunned, grenades have a 1.5 second timer.

Camoflauge - Available to Sniper.

Build sandbags, barbed wire, dragonsteeth tank traps, mines (25 muni each) - Available to Ostheer Pioneers

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
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4. --Veterancy--

Veterancy will be achieved through combat, but it will also be achieved by standing next to nearby units in combat, similar to the Panzer Elite, killing certain units such as command squads, t34's, IS2's and SU85/100's will give you a large boost in veterancy.

--Infantry: Grenadier Truppen, Sturmtruppen, Panzer Grenadiers

Level1 Vet: 5% Increased accuracy, -5% Recieved damage.
Level2 vet: 10% Increased accuracy, -5% recieved damage, -10% recieved supression accuracy, -10% recieved damage, -10% recieved supression, -10% reload/cooldown time.
Level3 vet: 10% Increased accuracy, -10% recieved damage, -15% recieved supression, -15% recieved damage.

--Support units: Ostheer Pioneers, MG34, 8m Mortar, Panzerjager Squad, Sturm Panzerjager squad, PaK40 Anti-tank gun,

Level1 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire
Level2 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire, 15% Decreased cooldown/reload speed
Level3 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire, 15% Decreased cooldown/reload speed, 5% Increased movement speed

Tanks and Vehicles: StuG III, Panzer III, Panzer IV, Panzer V Panther, Tiger I, Nashorn, Wirbelwind, Panzerwerfer, Hetzer, Halftrack (Blitzkrieg).

Level1 Vet: 10% Increased movement speed, -5 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer)
Level2 Vet: 15% Increased movement speed, -10 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer), 10% increased accuracy
Level3 Vet: 15% Increased movement speed, -15 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer), 15% increased accuracy, 15% reduced cooldown/reload speed

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
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Conclusion: So guys that is my ostheer suggestions, I know there will be flaws and issues you guys can spot, and by all means point them out and I will make the appropiate changes  ;D 

Post Merge: April 04, 2010, 01:41:31 AM


NOTE: All these ideas are based on gameplay over realism, I tried to keep the units and abilites with some degree of realism and balance, but please if you see any problems or errors in my work then say so, post extra suggestions and also comment if you like/dislike my ideas and why, Thanks!!!   ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 10:33:16 AM by StormsDivision »

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 02:05:39 AM »
This is the wet dream of each axis player ::)
Infantry units over infantry units.
Tanks, tanks, tanks!
No anti air.
Overpowered units!

Just some notes;
U have the Panzer III, IV, V and Tiger!
All german tanks to build...cant see any sense behind it.
U have StuG III, Hetzer and Nashorn!
3 good tank hunters...cant see any sense behind it.
U have Grenadiers, Sturmgrenadiers, Panzerjägersquad, Panzergrenadiere and Sturmpanzerjäger...and for most of this units i cant see a clear combat role.
and the Sturmpanzerjäger are op like anything else xD

And at the doctrines i cant find something new and unique
( a point u confess by your self with a ability description like: 1.) Grenade Assault -The same as the Blitz Grenadier Assault ).

So; hard words but i cant see a clear concept - looks for me just like a "i want everything in i could find ingame".

I repeat myself again and again!
Watch the old nations!
There are just some units for one specialized combat mission! There are long range infantry, short range infantry, assault infantry, specialized infantry, main battle tank, tank hunter, support tank, and so on.
Watch the structure and think about the unit and their functions.

Hey guys, love the mod and i'd love to contribute to it by making some suggestions, i've been playing CoH for 3 years so i'm confident of myself that i know what is balanced or not.
-> sorry man but i think your concept need a lot of rework.

Lord Rommel
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 02:13:24 AM by Lord Rommel »
May the force be with you.

Offline neosdark

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 03:12:50 AM »
I completly agree with what Lord Rommel said and would also like to mention that there is nothing unique about your faction. Its very obviously a Wehr reskin with a few new units. The Veterancy is dull cause it is used by the PE (you pointed this out yourself). This faction has to be special, unique, and differently structured then the Wehr or PE. Try to think of new abilities where ever you can.

As things stand you played more on realism then on game-play cause this is very unbalanced and very powerful.

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 10:52:27 AM »
Well if you think about it, the more powerful tanks such as the Tiger I, Nashorn and such would come in pretty late, and their huge costs would drain the Ostheer of their resources, the Nashorn would simply be a more powerful version of the marder, that is the best why i can describe it, i've used alot of things compared to the normal CoH because if I just said

"Grenade assault, throws a load of grenades for so many seconds, stunns and kills all russian infantry bobs there"

It would sound very overpowered given the low munition cost of 50 and early unlock, I did imagine them to create the Ostheer tiger using the old model and new stats, i'd like it to be less useful vs infantry, but I understand your point right there, so I took the final building and it's units out, I did think about it, i was unsure wether to delete it or not, so i just posted it at the time.

=== ===

Ostheer Grenadiers are simply like a slightly more powerful version of volks, again I use CoH units to describe the power because if you look at 'Ostheer Grenadiers' '5 men' 'Trained' you're obviously going to think that they are just gonna own countless squads of your early conscripts until you get the stelky squads

=== ===

As for the other infantry squads for example Panzer Grenadiers, they are more specialized infantry units, but what they are for lies in the name: Panzer Grenadiers, they support tanks, I was debating to put them in or not but then I thought that the Ostheer tanks needed at least some small support to counter the hordes of infantry.

=== ===

As a response to your opinions that 'This is a reskin of the Wehrmacht' and 'It should be differentley structured' my reply is that we're talking about a German army here, must it be so ridiculously different that we can't notice it from the other 2 German armies in the game? The German armies in CoH have always been: Start off with the HQ, your units have more uniqueness to them.

I do not think the russians are as unique, strelkys is just an 8 man rifleman squad, guards are an 8 man ranger squad with no supression. They have near enough the same unit types as I've pointed out in the Ostheer (Mortars, variety of infantry squads, many tanks + tank destroyers) and yes, ok, some of my units MIGHT be a bit overpowered, but why are we rushing so conclusions of balance without taking a proper think here? Ostheer Grenaiders are few in numbers compared to russians, they have 4 rifles and 1 SMG, conscripts have 4 rifles, cost less, take less time to produce and have 8 men for the Grenadiers to target!

=== === ===

Another thing I spotted in your post Rommel is 'Watch the old nations'... Then I get posts that say they agree with you and that 'It is a wehr reskin'... You can see where I'm going with this so I'm not going to explain too much there...

=== === ===

The reason the buildings deployment is so simple is because when I first started playing axis on CoH, i lost countless games simply because I didn't know how to advance to the next tier, the russian building system is even more simple since you can just build any building (given you have the resources) whenever you like.

=== === ===

Anyways thanks I guess for pointing out the flaws, I've no problem with seeing my own errors, but can you at least point out ways that I can improve them instead of just saying how overpowered they are?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:01:04 AM by StormsDivision »

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 01:19:27 PM »
Well. For me a coh faction had units for follwing
missions:
Infantry for long range combat:
WEHR: Volks PE: Grenadiers US: Rifles UK: Tommys SOV: Conscripts
Infantry:
Infantry for short range combat:
WEHR: Panzergrenadiere PE: Grenadiers G43 US: - UK: - SOV: Strelky
Infantry for assault combat:
WEHR: PzGrens MG 42 PE: Grens StG 44 US: Rifles BAR UK: Tommys Bren SOV: Gardes
Specialized Infantry:
WEHR: Knight Cross Holder, Sniper PE: - US: Sniper UK: Tommys with Rifle grenades SOV: Commander, Sniper
Anti tank infantry:
WEHR: PzGrens Schreck PE: Grens Schreck US: - UK: Engineers PIAT SOV: Tankhunter PTRD
"indirect fighting infantry":
WEHR: 8cm Mortar PE: SdKzf 250 with Mortar US: 81mm Mortar UK: Mortar Pit SOV: Mortar

Vehicles/guns:
anti tank:
WEHR: 5cm PAK PE: SdKfz. 250 3,7cm PAK, Marder US: 57mm PAK UK: 17pdr SOV: ZiS-2
anti air:
WEHR: Ostwind PE: - US: Half track .50 quad UK: Bofors SOV: T-90
Mainbattletank:
WEHR: Panzer IV PE: - US: Sherman UK: Cromwell SOV: T-34
Special tank:
WEHR: Panther, StuG PE: Bergetiger US: M10 Wolverine UK: Firefly SOV: SU-85, JS-2
Anti inf tank:
WEHR: Pz IV Ausf. G/J PE: Pz IV Ausf. F1 US: - UK: Stuart SOV: -
Recon:
WEHR: Krad ( Motorcycle ), PUMA PE: Krad, SdKfz. 222 US: Jeep, Grayhound UK: - SOV: T-70

This are all important combat missions i could found in coh which where ( for the most times ) represent by one unit ( or 2 when one of them isnt a combat unit ).

And with the german army:
Well. CoH had already two german army but they dont represent the historical german army and so i see no reason why Ostheer should like a pimped up Wehrmacht/PE and at the end i thin gamers will see a unique faction because of there are already this two german armys.
That the russians where orientated by the US/UK is in my viw no problem because the red army is totally new with all its weapons and vehicles. But a new Ostheer will need some old units of the Wehrmacht and PE and so because of this Ostheer need to be unique in more points.

May the force be with you.

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 01:58:37 PM »
I see your point, but do you not realise that it's going to be really hard to make Ostheer unique considering we're thinking of the axis as Germans here? If you want the Ostheer to be as unique as the russians then you're really going to have to forget the laws of reality, you can't make a German army unique from 2 other German armies in the same game, it's simply impossible.

Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:00:45 PM
To cut a long story short, you can't make too many unique units for the Ostheer because those units are in the normal 2 armies (Wehrmacht + Panzer Elite) In some form or manner! Simply because Ostheer is a German army, so is Wehrmacht and so is Panzer Elite
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 02:00:45 PM by StormsDivision »

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 02:04:43 PM »
Hm; i think u hadnt read some of the popular concept ideas here at the forum ;) There are a lot unique ideas starts up with new base buildup or new techsystem, new vetsystems, new units and so on.

And i cant understand your point of "german army had to be the same for all time" -> jeah, we had already two german armys at CoH but so it is time to think about new ways for a new german army.
I said already that Ostheer will need some already know or given units and abilities but a faction is much more then tanks, guns and soldiers ;)
May the force be with you.

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 02:05:43 PM »
And I'm just going to take your unit explaination and use it for my ostheer suggestions.

Infantry for long range combat:
Grenadier Truppen

Infantry for short range combat:
Grenadier Truppen, Sturmtruppen

Infantry for assault combat:
Sturmtruppen

Specialized Infantry:
Panzer Grenadiers, Sniper

Anti tank infantry:
Panzerjager squad

"indirect fighting infantry":
8cm Mortar

Vehicles/guns:
anti tank:
7.5cm PaK40

anti air:
Wirbelwind

Mainbattletank:
Panzer IV, Panzer V Panther

Anti inf tank:
Wirbelwind, StuG III

Recon:
Panzer III, StuG III

Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:08:30 PM
Yes they are unique, 2 different factions in CoH, Wehrmacht and Panzer elite but think about it, they use the same weapons and tanks, what I'm trying to say here is that people think the russians are sooooo unique because well, they're Soviets instead of Allies! You're using Soviet tanks instead of Allied tanks, Soviet weapons instead of Allied weapons. But with the Ostheer you can't expect too much unit and weapon difference because the arsenal of German weapons and tanks has been spread between 2 Armies already, so theres not much to pick out that is in good terms of balance and realism!

Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:09:44 PM
If it is the Doctrines and Veterancy that you think aren't unique, then fair enough I'll change them and try my best to make them more creative, but if it's the UNITS that aren't unique, there isn't much that I can do about that.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 02:09:44 PM by StormsDivision »

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 02:30:38 PM »
Well. I think there is enough space for new units ;)
e.g. why a Wirbelwind anti air tank?
Why not a Flankpanzer I, Möbelwagen or Pz 38 t Gepard?
Why no half track like SdKfz. 10/4 or SdKfz. 7/1, SdKft. 7/2?

Or with the tanks: You have Pz III, Pz IV and Panther?
Why is Pz III a recon? For me Pz III is a medium mainbattletank and no recon.
Why a Pz IV again when Pz III could be the medium tank?
What is about recon tanks like the Pz II Ausf. L "Luchs" or SdKfz. 234/3 or SdKfz. 234/4?

So in my eyes there are a lot of new vehicles and weapons for the Ostheer ;)

So u could make a unique Ostheer with new weapons, abilities, buildup and so on.
That is the challenge for the new Ostheer!
May the force be with you.

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 04:00:12 PM »
Why not a flakpanzer/mobelwagen? Because for 3 command points you'd expect something that can fend off at least enemy infantry, especially considering it's the last unlock for the Anti Air side of the doctrine.

Having a Pz III for a MBT (Main battle tank) is like having the British stuart as the MBT, it's only good vs infantry + light tanks.

Why a Panzer IV? Because it was the 2nd most numerous armored fighting vehicle Germany produced!!! Not having a Panzer IV in the Ostheer is like not having the Kar98 for Infantry!!!

As for the Luchs, ok yes I agree, some lighter tanks may be needed, I'll make the appropriate changes when I have more time on my hands.

Yes there may be alot of new vehicles, but not many of them may have a real purpose on the battlefield, I don't see the point in giving the Ostheer sdkfz 7/1 or 7/2 because #1 they have no weapons and #2 No one really want to waste 200 manpower and some small fuel to make a troop transport when you can just garrison a building and upgrade it to a forward barracks for a little extra manpower, and just produce lots of units from there!
#3 No one really uses the SDKFZ from the original Wehrmacht for troop transport, the only reason it's used is to upgrade it to a stuka or flamethrowers.

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »
Panzer III = Stuart oO
Well...i think Pz III is much better!
May the force be with you.

Offline Ghost

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 05:36:55 PM »
panzer III had superior armor and gun:

M3 Stuart

37mm gun, 13-51mm armor
Panzer III
50mm gun, 30-77mm armor
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 05:40:43 PM by kingtiger »
Jagd[tiger] is a buildable replacement for the Kettenkrad... It can cloak and cap points. :P

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 07:02:22 PM »
We're fighting soviets here, the only things they'll be able to take on is the t-70, t-90, zis healing truck and katyusha in head on assault.

Stuart can take on Scout cars, Halftracks, Pumas and the Hotchkiss, not similar soviet vehicles, but all light armor.

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 07:13:29 PM »
Well. For me the Panzer III ( up from Ausf. F with 5cm KwK L/42 ) is a good medium tank which is able to destroy a
T-34/76 and so i dont need the Pz IV again.

Panther or Tiger is an other point because both are typical symbols for the war at the eastern front. Both tanks were designed and build for the war against the red armor and so i think here it is much harder to not putting them into the Ostheer.
May the force be with you.

Offline StormsDivision

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Re: - Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 07:41:07 PM »
I just happen to be an expert in armoured warfare of WWII, and I know straight away that the Panzer III's 50mm KwK 38 and the upgraded KwK 39 could not penetrate the T34's 50mm Sloped frontal armour, which is why they introduced the more powerful 75mm KwK 40 onto the Panzer IV, a tank originally designed to handle soft targets such as infantry, light vehicles, machine gun nests etc, a role which the Panzer III was not suited for.