USSR OP vs Wehr

[GodlikeDennis]

Well until we do know the difference between sniper and infantry there's not much use debating is there? Regardless, the countersniper needs to be more effective against the sniper team. Perhaps increase reinforce cost to ~200.

[Wilson]

Bike is useless against a good player.  He'll use mines and AT guns to protect.  Only way is to countersnipe or quickly dispose the sniper with concentrated infantry fire.  This is why I am arguing for lower health and higher manpower penalties for getting counter-sniped.

And no I don't think sniper armor is worse than infantry armor.

Anyways, I'd like to sandbox the sniper team counter-snipe scenario with you sometime.  I want to see if I click on the sniper squad Konig automatically shoots the sniper in the squad all the time.

Since I was curious I loaded up Corsix's mod studio. Against basic Wehr and PE K98s, infantry armour is worse. The difference being that sniper armour gives a 0.75 bonus to accuracy, while infantry armour is 1 for Wehr and 1.15 for PE.

Against an MP40, the sniper is worse, having a 1 damage bonus compared to 0.75 bonus for infantry armour.

Against an MP44 there's no difference (This is the MP44 used by Knights Cross, since I can't see any others it might be the one used by Stormtroopers and Panzergrenadiers as well).

Against a bike there's a fair difference, and it's quite interesting actually. Bikes usually get a 0.75 bonus to accuracy against infantry, and a further 0.75 while moving but against snipers it's 1 for both. Meaning that bikes don't lose any accuracy while moving when firing at snipers, which I didn't know. Obviously that doesn't apply to the Soviet sniper.

So what the above might mean is that the Soviet sniper is a bit more likely to be hit by normal rifle fire, takes less damage from MP40s than a normal sniper, and is less likely to be hit by a bike than a normal sniper. Those are only a few weapons of course, but hopefully they somewhat reflect similar weapons.

[Paciat]

Since I was curious I loaded up Corsix's mod studio. Against basic Wehr and PE K98s, infantry armour is worse. The difference being that sniper armour gives a 0.75 bonus to accuracy, while infantry armour is 1 for Wehr and 1.15 for PE.

Against an MP40, the sniper is worse, having a 1 damage bonus compared to 0.75 bonus for infantry armour.

Against an MP44 there's no difference (This is the MP44 used by Knights Cross, since I can't see any others it might be the one used by Stormtroopers and Panzergrenadiers as well).

Against a bike there's a fair difference, and it's quite interesting actually. Bikes usually get a 0.75 bonus to accuracy against infantry, and a further 0.75 while moving but against snipers it's 1 for both. Meaning that bikes don't lose any accuracy while moving when firing at snipers, which I didn't know. Obviously that doesn't apply to the Soviet sniper.

So what the above might mean is that the Soviet sniper is a bit more likely to be hit by normal rifle fire, takes less damage from MP40s than a normal sniper, and is less likely to be hit by a bike than a normal sniper. Those are only a few weapons of course, but hopefully they somewhat reflect similar weapons.

Ill like to add that sharpshooters armor HP and reinforcement cost can be change. Id rather give it less HP but more toughness to long range infantry shots. One of the main Sharpshooter problems is that it can withstand (retreat very late) a MP44 rush. Bikes arent that efective too and early light tank support (SU-85) makes WH T1-T3 (quick puma) strat useless.

IMO Sharpshooter team should have sniper armor, 60HP and a 150MP reinforce cost.

[Zerstörer]

Bike is useless against a good player.  He'll use mines and AT guns to protect.  Only way is to countersnipe or quickly dispose the sniper with concentrated infantry fire. 

That's the same issue you have with countering a US sniper. You guys need to take a step back in your quest to nerf the sniper team and think a bit more.
What you guys are suggesting is for the WH sniper to become a 'hard counter'/100% effective to the soviet sniper, since he'll always win the engagement vs a visible soviet sniper and also have the soviet sniper alot more vulnerable to everyone else cause they don't camouflage.

What you'll end up with is an unusable unit that becomes an MP sink as soon as the WH player builds a sniper. Costing the same MP and coming earlier, its hardly like a WH player can't do that already. WH sniper being one of the most usueful early units for countering the command squad

[Chancellor]

God...just give the Soviet sniper squad the ability to camo-walk like the other snipers then FFS.  Its honestly not that helpful; I don't camo that much at all when using Konig anways; just shoot and move back, shoot and move back.  Then there should be no more excuses for reenforce costs / HP nerf.

Let them camo-walk, give each member 340 reenforce cost, nerf the HP to normal sniper's.  That way if he gets countersniped it hurts as much as any other player's sniper getting killed.  But retain two man squad, so he can retreat if he wants and buy another squad member for 340 (essentially another sniper)  This way the squad can keep the vet it earned in combat.

I'm not sure why I bother posting here anymore.  Everyone knows it needs a good nerf (I'm not saying my suggestions are perfect, but a change in armor type is definately NOT enough) but devs keep being stubborn.  Listening to sh1t noobs tell them like making 10% global vet per level when 5% was perfectly fine.

I'm done talking about balance, its no use to make a point here.  You guys can just see for yourself how far the next patch "fixes" this stuff.  Peace out.

[Blackbishop]

[...]
IMO Sharpshooter team should have sniper armor, 60HP and a 150MP reinforce cost.

This seems to be a nice suggestion. Change armor, nerf HP(tbd) and higher reinforce cost should make them.

@Chancellor
You should keep calm dude, if you get mad you just cloud your judgement. Remember that we should tailor soviets for the average public, not just for 100 users. Seeing that your suggestion will change completely the sniper team (supposing that you were serious), I don't think will be embraced by the team.

[Zerstörer]

@Chancellor-Ok first of all dude, chill and listen to what I'm actually explaining to you(based on your suggestions). Don't throw a fit cause it doesn't help.

Do the Sharpshooters need further nerf? Yes, ofcourse, I didn't say otherwise!
But finding a proper way of nerfing them without destroying the way they play is another matter entirely. That's why bloody game design and balancing ain't easy.
I've explained that you're going too far with the nerf you're asking and most importantly, I explained WHY that was too much.

So how about, like we do, try and see if there is a better way of doing this.

The global vet bonus was not actually requested by 'noobs' like you said, but was considered by Kolaris too low...but we did go too far which is why we'll drop it to 8% AND increase the requirements to obtain vet for the command squad so that you should only get 3 levels of vet really by the time the map is crawling with vet3 grens

[Joshua9]

I still haven't had any major issues with sniper use as wehr...I AM having some major difficulties against russia though. 

I chock alot of this up to growing pains, but my friend is having a really easy time of steam rolling me with tanks at the moment. 

Are russian op's just as easy to kill as regular ops?  My impression was that they seemed harder to kill(barring flamers), and I kind of think they should be easier to kill than ops, given they automatically reinforce on the field, for no additional cost.  Also, snipers don't target units in these outposts? or was something just acting weird in my game?  Seems like a single early op is not much of a drawback for russia at the moment, and that can quickly force wehrmacht on the defensive, because now I need to prepare against early t-90s...which is not countered by grens with shreks at all, and can easily aviod or even get the better of an at gun.   

Stugs have a very temporary and not overly effective role against russian vehicles, but I guess that's no different than their role against any other faction.  They can even be effectively swarmed by a few cheap t-70's, or better and easier, one su-85 which will make short work of it.  Of course I use mines, and that's the only thing thats been getting me into late innings...but it hasn't been enough


so likely by mid  game I find myself struggling to hold on to my own resources.  the enemy has brutal early vehicles containing me, and far more mobility for point turning.  I find myself having to use a combination of t2 t3 for antivehicle defense, and mid-late game the upgraded t34's (forgot their name) are all around killers that do not die easily..pumping a few of these out does not seem to have a downside.  I've been getting the kt often, and finding that it is not much of a deterant by the time it hits.  it doesnt need to be avoided by then, or slowly harassed, just blitzed at and overwhelmed, even when I have some support. 

I'm sure that this has alot to do with some missteps on my part...I'm only comfortable with a couple wehr strats at the moment, even against vanilla factions(least played faction somehow) but without knowledge of a proper way to counter my friend's tank assembly line, he isn't having to do a lot of heavy lifting to roll me.

The only thing that i've found somewhat shocking is how powerful that air strike call-in is.  It may be a shadow of what it used to be, but it's still really good, and admittedly pretty cool the way it works...until it gets spammed at no interval over and over.  150 is the cost of a straff.  Granted, munitions upkeep may be more prohibitive for russians, and 150 may be a big number, but given my friend's blase approach to its use, it didn't seem like it was breaking his bank.  it was devistating me...it's not very contained, there's no avoiding it unless I want to abandon the field entirely.

[GodlikeDennis]

... increase the requirements to obtain vet for the command squad so that you should only get 3 levels of vet really by the time the map is crawling with vet3 grens

Don't increase the vet 1 requirement though. That one's already rather tought to get to. Increase the others though, since once you actually GET arty the kills skyrocket.

... early t-90s...which is not countered by grens with shreks at all, and can easily aviod or even get the better of an at gun.   
...

For some reason, T-90s absolutely obliterate Paks from any direction. It seems like this thing has been the biggest balance problem in the history of EF. At least it's finally balanced against infantry.

[Chancellor]

@Zertsoter
What makes RMC too strong early game right now is the Fallschrimjager camo-combat thing; not so much the starting unit.  I'm not saying they shouldn't have it, because they need something to compete with vet 2 grens, but it comes too early atm.  Please check out the benefits of the combat-camo thing.  I believe it lets them crit shot every-time they shoot, as long as they are in cover...  My replay says it all.  If I didn't have the med bunker or if he was smart enough to shoot the medics, it would have been gg very very early.

What are the accuracy tables for Soviet weapons against gren elite armor?

For American and British weapons against elite armor you can check the bottom of this page: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/portals.php?show=page&name=company-of-heroes-wehrmacht-veterancy-guide [nofollow]

Currently, grens get around 25% at vet 2 (I'm not sure about against Soviet weapons), +20% health at vet 3.

8% at every level means around 24% global at vet 3.  Combine that with each Soviet squad's individual vet bonuses (which are pretty big), and the burden of the Wehr player to make a precautionary PaK and lets do the math.  Making vet too hard to earn will make Soviets less competitive since it won't come in time.  Making the bonus per level too high will make it OP at vet 3.  Just make it 6-7% per level (perhaps 20% total), change the vet 1 requirement back to normal.  If Kolaris said really said 10% per level, then fine, I'm the noob here.

Whatever happens, Soviet sniper MUST get a solid nerf.  Sniper armor is not a real nerf at all.  And no, they're not useless at late game just because they can't camo, and no, Wehr sniper is not a 100% hard counter to them at all.  I have many reasons, but I'm too tired to type them all out.

I wasn't angry today; I honestly don't know why people came up with that presumption.  I just wanted to resign from writing all these thesis papers.  Its like I have to write a 5 whole paragraphs just to convince any of the devs to even consider anything.

[Joshua9]

There are some Russian Units right now that just feel far too cost effective at the moment....I'm getting my ass handed to me by my friend right now over and over, so some of this might be irrational rant, but we are typically pretty balanced players, and with vanilla factions I"ve been giving him a real hard time recently.  Not so, Russia Vs Wehr. 

tank hunters are back on my most hated list.  It's pretty hilarious watching 3 of them run up to your base, shoot a few times, chuck a few anti tank grenades, and decimate everything.  I think they do too much damage to armor as well...either that or they just don't die as fast as they should to everything else.  Their range keeps them very safe from harm, and it takes a lot of armor to make them back off. I don't know what their numbers are, but I think they should suppress easier, and I think a slight range decrease is warranted.  Seems like they should compliment other anti tank, not be the soul deterrent.  They seem to make pumas a very bad choice...eat through the front armor of stugs...and upgraded, will decimate a panther.

AT gun also seems to hit hard.  I was astonished by how much damage they do to front panther armor when even tripple vetted.. 

T-90's have been mentioned...These guys won't allow for a whole lot of combined arms counters...get a volks team up close enough to faust it while your AT is shooting at it, and they will get eaten alive. Same with grens.  Obviously the damage they do to AT crews from any angle should be looked at, but I wouldn' mind a slight decrease in damage output as well.  And they do too much to buildings.

upgraded t-34's seem too good against infantry.  They alaready crush everything in their path when in teams...because they are blazing fast and nothing can get out of their way...but that's just what they don't kill with their guns...even upgraded they don't seem a lot less effective than shermans against infantry, and they are beasts against tanks.  I think they could stand to be less effective against infantry.  Russia has a lot of very powerful specialized units...it would be nice if most of them were specialized.

would be nice to see some replays of better players than myself going at it, emaybe especially some of the beta testers, just to see how these things are typically handled, because like I said, I may just be ranting after a string of losses.

[Paciat]

even upgraded they don't seem a lot less effective than shermans against infantry, and they are beasts against tanks.  I think they could stand to be less effective against infantry.

The area of effect is tha same as Shermans (76,2 same as 75mm, 85 same as 76mm) but the dmg of an 85mm is higher so a shot is more likely to get multi kills.
T34/76 gun is very inaccuarate (0,7 Short, 0,6 Medium 0,5 Long) but T-34/85 accuracy is the same as more expensive PzIV or a Sherman (1 Short, 1 Medium 0,75 Long). Both T-34 get 20% acc bonus at vet 1. How about a little accuracy nerf to T-34/85 accuracy so it would match the IS-2 acc (0,9 Short, 0,9 Medium 0,65 Long)?

[GodlikeDennis]

How about just decrease the AoE a bit of the 85? Both variants are available at the same time anyway now.

[Seeme]

I Agree, that would help alot.

[Venoxxis]

[...]
1. How about a little accuracy nerf to T-34/85 accuracy so it would match the IS-2 acc (0,9 Short, 0,9 Medium 0,65 Long)?

How about just decrease the AoE a bit of the 85? Both variants are available at the same time anyway now.

I support both idea. These are the main issues in my eyes as well.


best regards