ostheer medium tanks

[Aouch]

Now I'm happy that we understand each other. 
I'm sorry if I write some of my posts in a way, which could be easily misinterpreted. After all, English isn't my native language either. 

I'll just say something further to make sure everything is clear.

You want to keep it PE-Infantry style blob style as a CON to get a 'PRO'.
That of buffing the rather 'weak' MTB to decent levels.

I don't know what exactly you mean, but I don't want a group of Pz3 gaining any advantages. They just lose a disadvantage this way. OK, maybe PE-style vet-sharing, but not making them deal more dmg or something alongside these lines. 
Stug3 counting as Panzer to remove this con is just fine.

* That's not what I understood. I understood that German
 should have 3 PzIII by the time Soviets come out with their
 first T34, and that PzIII should win 1-on-1. 'Because
 Germans are Uber'. / Do you understand my reaction now?

Oh. Now I really understand why you reacted like that. 
To be a bit more accurate, I actually thought about that:
The first Pz3 "J" (L/42) arrives before the first T-34 and a bit after T-70 or Stuart. However, its use is very limited due to its slow movement in ET. The second Pz3 should arrive about the same time as the first T-34. Therefore the both Panzer still have a slight con but however are able to take out the T-34 if on own territory or better micro'ed.
When the third Pz3 arrives, which enables the OH to drive a first attack towards enemy lines, the second T-34 is being made/already drove out of factory.
After that third Pz3 (if you only produce Pz3 in that time), assuming we're talking about the Pz3-Stug-upgrade-system, the first Stug3 is being built to counter effectively the T-34, since Pz3 won't be able to stand a chance if engaged in a 3v3-situation.


Again, I'm really glad we can understand each other.
I know that we've two different opinions about the whole thing, but I accept your ideas and you accept my thinking. 
Great!

[Loupblanc]

 @Aouch :
 - We both converse in a language which is neither mine
 or your native language (Although, to be fair, I was born
 in Scotland, but... brogue is still different). Lol
 How could we *NOT* expect misunderstandings?
 * SNAFU -Situation normal : All fucked up.
 - PzIII blob con/pro.
 Hmm, well, getting a pro, or losing a con. Either way,
 it's an operational improvement. But we're fencing (swords
 play term)(or dancing) with details. Lol. But, fine.
 I'd actually be willing to let you get away with a genuine
 PRO, if you're willing to let this CON hamper you.
 - Well... yea. I don't just explode and turn nasty for
 no reason, you know. Now you really understand
 
 - PzIIIL42, 2PzIIIL42-1T34, 3PzIIIL42-2T34. Then...
 Could sort of work, yea. I was thinking of something
 very similar. I think there's like a 10% disagreement,
 but it's essentially that, yup.
 - I thought J was the L60 ?

 * See, I can give you stuff too I'm glad you accept
 the StuGIII as a PzIII for the blob thing.
 * BTW, I agree your PzIII blob should share xp. In this
 case, it warrants it.
 * Yup!

 *** BTW, now that you've explained the Tank/Artillerie
 pool, I really like it, too. PzIII/MarderII or StuGIII/Wespe.
 (Since StuGIII belong to Artillerie-Korps)

 Should StuG be submitted to same non-blob speed
 limitations?

 I was thinking of something...
 Why not give it speed limitations *BUT* it's released
 from it, if 2 infantry groups follow it? You like?
 Again, gameplay-wise, it's a con to help justify a further
 Pro. It also works with the PzIII-ideology, and goes with
 German doctrine.

[Ryousan]

    I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
     I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
     (More than T34/Sherman)
     I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
     I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
     I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
     StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
     (The Marder is)

*Loups proposal, I agreed with all of it.

The things in which I did not agree Were StuartIII and Bergepanzer.

- Hmm... so you want OstHeer to have a JS-2.
 Wehr have Panther.
 PE have Panther.
 Hmm. Americans have Sherman76, Brits have
 Firefly (Non-doctrinal, we said)(Churchill don't count)

Ok, you said not necessarily Tanks.
 What do you propose?

-I voted for buildable Nashorn.

-Another thing could be a specialized pioneer squad that can build nerfed 88s. Many limitations though

-Panzer IV Battlegroup.

-StugIII Battlegroup.

-A single Tiger Call in.

Make your call 

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

-Another thing could be a specialized pioneer squad that can build nerfed 88s. Many limitations though

-Panzer IV Battlegroup.

-StugIII Battlegroup.

-A single Tiger Call in.

Make your call 

I think because 88s are already used by the two existing german factions and i wish stugIII will be buildable, i would vote for panzerIV battlegroup (wich should actually be 3) or even the single tiger. It happend often too me, that i was overrun by some dirty spammers with a bloody blob of whatever ist was units, and then i called the tiger and won immediately..

[Loupblanc]

 Is it my imagination or is there a huge chunk of the conversation
 missing?

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

Its because of the new webdesign, you werent able to access the forum for a while 'because of maintenance' what it said.
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

[Aouch]

But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
I would like if that's added through doctrines, though. Therefore one doc has Elefant, another maybe a Tiger or a Panther-call-in.
However, I also think that not every doctrine should have a heavy tank or tank-destroyer. For example, another doc could be based around the Luftwaffe and have a StuKa-attack, with a Ju 87 coming in and dropping one single heavy 500 kilo bomb to destroy tanks from above (after all, most WW II-era tanks had rather weak top-armor).
Or something based around static warfare with a PaK40-emplacement. 


One thing to the new design: I really like the new Homepage-design, however the way it's put into the Forums looks like someone threw literally a gigantic shitload over it. This brown is just a no-go in my opinion. It makes it very, very difficult to read posts.
Also, the few "white places" and letters still existing is really hurting my eyes. 

I don't care if you make it look like someone shit on every post and topic, but then at least don't make it that dark-brown.   

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.
 

Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.

[Paciat]

But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.

Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.

Panzer battlegroup? Whats that?
Id rather have a buildable vet 0 Tiger with 1 on the field limit.
Panther turrets will be better than unrecrewable emplacemests.
Nashorn should also be buildable while Ferdinand will be a heavy call-in.

[Loupblanc]

Its because of the new webdesign, you werent able to access the forum for a while 'because of maintenance' what it said.
But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

 - PzIV, PzV, and JagPanzer (Long nosed)
 (But mind you, it's already in OstHeer, now)(Reward unit)
 (Although semi short barrel)

Post Merge: September 17, 2010, 06:11:16 PM
 Eh. If someone has a multiple tank call-in, it should be the
 soviets. Not the Germans.

 I'm totally for the Stuka Junkers dropping 500kg bombs
 Make it dive-scream, though. There's already one in a COH
 mod, too. So it can be done allright.

 I like the idea of a buildable-1 limit Vet 0 tiger on battlefield.
 They were certainly more numerous in the East than in the West.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

But what would you like to have as an alternative to stugIII or pzIII in fighting enemy armour?

I don't think we need any "alternative" to StuG III and Pz III. What we need is something heavier for the heavier enemy tanks.

Thats exactly what i meant. In one doctrine there will be the ferdinand/elefant tank destroyer, i think Pak40 emplacement is a good idea. StuKa attack should also be included, and the panzer battlegroup too.

Panzer battlegroup? Whats that?
Id rather have a buildable vet 0 Tiger with 1 on the field limit.
Panther turrets will be better than unrecrewable emplacemests.
Nashorn should also be buildable while Ferdinand will be a heavy call-in.

Panzer Battlegroup is that what PE already has, the Panther Battlegroup. Dont know if this is correct, i only own the german version..

@Loup: When we use PzIV and Panther again, then maybe in the battlegroup. Then two PzIV and one Panther. Ive already seen the video about the StuKa mod, i think it looks well but a bit laggy-unrealistic, the turn it does when throwing the bombs. Id like to hear the Stuka sirene and would like to see something like the pinned down effect when the stuka with sirens flies above them
Tiger souns also good

[Loupblanc]

 "One of our tigers was worth 10 of your shermans" Said the German. "However, you always had the 11th"

http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/
 
 ... This is what I meant in saying that Americans/Russians should
 always have more tanks than Germans. The -1 pop of Russian tanks
 helps in that direction. I like.

  But it's also why I'm uncomfortable with Germans being able
 to have a lot more Tanks on the field than allies, see? That'S
 what I was referring to.

 ----
 Maxiking6 : 
- Battlegroup of 2PzIV and 1PzV : WAaaaayy stronger than the
 1 Tiger call-in, wouldn't you say? If anyone should have a multiple
 tank call-in, it should be the Soviets.
- Ya. I like the 1 tiger capped buildable. Vet0 though. Michael
 Wittman was an ace when he fought in the West, but he got his
 Ace status in the EAST. Not a legend there... yet. There were a
 lot more Tigers in the east than in the West.
- Crush those red idiots...
 ... No racism, this is not a political debate. We're discussing gameplay.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

 Maxiking6 : 
- Battlegroup of 2PzIV and 1PzV : WAaaaayy stronger than the
 1 Tiger call-in, wouldn't you say? If anyone should have a multiple
 tank call-in, it should be the Soviets.
- Ya. I like the 1 tiger capped buildable. Vet0 though. Michael
 Wittman was an ace when he fought in the West, but he got his
 Ace status in the EAST. Not a legend there... yet. There were a
 lot more Tigers in the east than in the West.
- Crush those red idiots...
 ... No racism, this is not a political debate. We're discussing gameplay.

It was just a little joke about the soviets.. When you look around in the farum, you'll see many of those phrases.
And the I would resize my battlegroup to one PzIV and one Panther, i dont want to exaggerate

[Cozmin95]

Loupblanc, seriously, why the hell do you keep on writing in this strange, sarcasm-style-way?
Since you don't get it, I'll have to repeat myself, now in short phrases, maybe you are now able to get it and stop to troll, because that is exactly what you are doing in the moment:

1) I want Stug3.
2) I want Pz3.
3) I want Pz3 being a gap-filler between the Stuart and
    Sherman -> Ausf. J (5cm KwK38 L/42).
4) I want Pz3 to be the MTB of the OH. A rather "weak" MTB.
    (Should only be effective as a group -> 2-3 Pz
    needed to gain full movement-speed in enemy territory)
5) I want Stug3 being an assault-gun and tankdestroyer.
    -> Ausf. G (7.5cm StuK40 L/48)
    (To work as infantry-support -> mobile "infantry-cover")
6) I want pricing + pop be based on balance-testing

Now some additional things: Pz3 is only effective as a group. This doesn't mean they should be spam-tanks. I'll make an example to help you understanding it:
If a SU-player has 3 T-34, he can use them everywhere on their own to support infantry or do attacks.
If a OH-player has 3 Pz3, he can use them only in a group to do attacks.
Therefore, if 3 Pz3 encounter a lonely T-34, they'll win, because they're more and can circle-straf him, whatever.
If 3 Pz3 encounter all 3 enemy T-34 in one place, they'll lose.

Now, the other things depend on how the Pz3/Stug3 are added.
If they're reward-units, Pz3 should be upgradeable to Ausf. J¹ (5cm KwK39 L/60) for better AT or Ausf. N (7.5cm KwK37 L/24) for better AI.
Stug3 should start as version with short 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 for AI and later be upgradeable to Ausf G with StuK40 L/48 for AT.
If they Stug3 is Pz3-upgrade, Stug3 shouldn't have the StuK37. Because that's the Pz3 Ausf. N's role.
Or forget about Ausf. N and make Stug3 with StuK37 and later upgrade. However, as we've seen a WIP-model of "N", it would be dump to not add it in.
If they're added through unit-pools, we can have them the first way, both with all upgrades. However, the "tank-branch" should get PzJ Marder II as tankdestroyer, since Pz3 lacks proper AT-capabilities against later tanks and "artillery-branch" should get PzH Wespe, because after all it's the artillery-section.

For all three possibilities there should be still some heavier tanks, may they be buildable or through doctrine.

And now, please stop talking bullshit about "what Aouch thinks/wants".

I totally agree with you there, i like everything!
And for a heavy/call-in unit i think we should have the Nashorn buildable or 3 x Panzer III/IV as call in; and i think not many where built but it would be nice to see something new unlike the Tiger, Panther, Panzer IV call-in!
Panzer III/IV: http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/02-mPanzers/PzKpfw3-4/PzKpfw3-4.htm [nofollow]

PS: If the Nashorn is doctrine specific and you don't want the Panzer III/IV since it wasn't very used at least go with Panzer IV Battlegroup of 2 newer versions either the same or one Anti Tank and one Anti Infantry!

Yeah i though so since WW2 Drawings doesn't even specify if there was a prototype and after a long search in google nothing showed then it was never used, and if it's not on google, it isn't anywhere! But what about the Panzer IV battlegroup of a Stubby(AI) and a long barrel(AT)?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Just one note:
Your Panzer III/IV wasnt never used in combat ( no Prototype was build ).